Parisian makers marks late 18th/early 19th century

[JAY541]

Hello,

Hoping this message finds everyone well in these strange times..

I may ramble on a bit so apologies and bear with me please.

Am posting to try to identify some marks and logos on nearly 500 gaming dice inlaid in a late 18th century English vernacular trestle stool.

From researching so far have found that one belongs to Martin-Guillaume Biennais' 'Au Singe Violet', however the others without joy so far.

Following a recent Biennais sale, contacted the French auctioneer who advised these as being that of silversmith's (guessing meant French/Parisian)..which is logical considering one is that of Biennais. Am supposing silversmiths/goldsmiths of the period also sold other luxury items (such as gaming sets including dice) complementing their silver and gold wares and also marking these with their makers marks/logos..not unlike London based Asprey or Garrards..

Intriguingly they were inlaid in the form of a stately home and its gatehouse.

My speculation is that they date from the first decade of the 19th century and that were not shipped to France due to the naval blockade (history repeating!!) during the Napoleonic conflict. If any way to understand the makers or date the marks, then would greatly help solve part of the mystery surrounding this piece.

Have uploaded images to a wetransfer board, link below;

https://collect.wetransfer.com/board/s0 ... 614/latest

Realise that the item concerned is not silver/gold..however hope am on the right board and you don't mind my query considering the silver/goldsmith connection.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

Regards
Andrzej

[dognose]

Hi

Welcome to the Forum.

Please embed your images.

Trev.

[JAY541]

Hi

Welcome to the Forum.

Please embed your images.

Trev.

Thanks Trev,

Sorry, not sure how to do this..if could advise please. Thank you.

Regards
Andrzej

[dognose]

https://postimages.org (choose 'Share', then copy the 'Hotlink for forums' code) is recommended. Do not use Photobucket or Dropbox.

Trev.

[oel]

Removed your last post and image link. Please do as requested and follow the instructions.


Peter.

[JAY541]

Removed your last post and image link. Please do as requested and follow the instructions.


Peter.

Dear Peter,

As advised by Trev am trying, however postimages.org is not accepting the password it gave me. When trying to change password it doesn't accept my email address..advising not valid and when trying to sign in again using the same email, advises email already in use.

What to do??

Regards
Andrzej

[dognose]

Hi Andrzej,

You shouldn't need to open an account, just click on the button marked 'Choose Images' and that should take you to your image files.

Trev.

[JAY541]

Hi Andrzej,

You shouldn't need to open an account, just click on the button marked 'Choose Images' and that should take you to your image files.

Trev.

Hi Trev,

Sorry, first time used this and not familiar.

Uploaded images and link below to the album:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/ZBtMbhD

Hope this is what you mean or links to each image individually? Thanks.

Regards
Andrzej

[JAY541]

Hi Andrzej,

You shouldn't need to open an account, just click on the button marked 'Choose Images' and that should take you to your image files.

Trev.

Hi Trev,

Sorry, first time used this and not familiar.

Uploaded images and link below to the album:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/ZBtMbhD

Hope this is what you mean or links to each image individually? Thanks.

Regards
Andrzej

Ok started again, pressed return and think lost the previous uploaded images/gallery?

Below link to gallery + hotlink to forums url for rach image. Hope this works..


https://postimg.cc/gallery/xM1xPRN

[dognose]

Perfect! Hopefully someone may recognise the marks.

Trev.

[JAY541]

Perfect! Hopefully someone may recognise the marks.

Trev.

Thanks for bearing with me!! :)

Regards
Andrzej

[JayT]

Hello
Here are some comments regarding this unusual item:

-Silversmith makers’s marks in France were legislated in terms of shape, size and placement. You wouldn’t expect to find a silversmith’s mark on an object made of ivory, bone or wood.
-It was not usual to have silversmiths retail other fancy goods.
-Martin-Guillaume Biennais started out as a tabletier, making boxes, toiletry cases, gaming boards, and small furnishings. He subcontracted out any silver fittings. After the Revolution, guilds were abolished in 1791, so Biennais could register a mark as a silversmith without having gone through the usual training and sponsorship required.
-Biennais had either a stroke of luck or a moment of business genius when he advanced credit to a young Napoléon Bonaparte for the purchase of a toiletry case. Napoléon never forgot his support, eventually naming Biennais silversmith to the Emperor, thereby making his career.
-The mark you say is the trademark for Biennais’ shop - Au Singe Violet - isn’t clear enough to me to attribute it to Biennais. Furthermore, the monkey in profile appears to be facing right, whereas the monkey in Biennais’ trademark and silver maker’s mark faces left.
-Are you suggesting that the gaming tiles in your set were marked by different makers? This to me would not seem logical.
-Do you think the object was made in England with French gaming pieces? This would be unusual in my opinion.
-The wooden game board doesn’t look as refined as Biennais’ usual production. Biennais hot-stamped his wood furniture with Biennais Au Singe Violet, all in uppercase.

Thank you for showing us this object.

Regards.

For more information about Biennais:

Dion-Tenenbaum, Anne. L’orfèvre de Napoléon: Martin-Guillaume Biennais. Paris, Editions de la Réunion des musées nationaux, 2003.

Tamisier-Vétois, Isabelle et al. Meubles à secrets, secrets de meubles. Dijon, Éditions Faton, 2018.

[JAY541]

Hello
Here are some comments regarding this unusual item:

-Silversmith makers’s marks in France were legislated in terms of shape, size and placement. You wouldn’t expect to find a silversmith’s mark on an object made of ivory, bone or wood.
-It was not usual to have silversmiths retail other fancy goods.
-Martin-Guillaume Biennais started out as a tabletier, making boxes, toiletry cases, gaming boards, and small furnishings. He subcontracted out any silver fittings. After the Revolution, guilds were abolished in 1791, so Biennais could register a mark as a silversmith without having gone through the usual training and sponsorship required.
-Biennais had either a stroke of luck or a moment of business genius when he advanced credit to a young Napoléon Bonaparte for the purchase of a toiletry case. Napoléon never forgot his support, eventually naming Biennais silversmith to the Emperor, thereby making his career.
-The mark you say is the trademark for Biennais’ shop - Au Singe Violet - isn’t clear enough to me to attribute it to Biennais. Furthermore, the monkey in profile appears to be facing right, whereas the monkey in Biennais’ trademark and silver maker’s mark faces left.
-Are you suggesting that the gaming tiles in your set were marked by different makers? This to me would not seem logical.
-Do you think the object was made in England with French gaming pieces? This would be unusual in my opinion.
-The wooden game board doesn’t look as refined as Biennais’ usual production. Biennais hot-stamped his wood furniture with Biennais Au Singe Violet, all in uppercase.

Thank you for showing us this object.

Regards.

For more information about Biennais:

Dion-Tenenbaum, Anne. L’orfèvre de Napoléon: Martin-Guillaume Biennais. Paris, Editions de la Réunion des musées nationaux, 2003.

Tamisier-Vétois, Isabelle et al. Meubles à secrets, secrets de meubles. Dijon, Éditions Faton, 2018.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated..

-Re silversmith/goldsmith marks, this suggestion came from the auction house that recently sold a group of Biennais' items. Specifically quoted (translated) as 'reproductions of goldsmith's punches'. My initial guess was individual gambler or gambling house marks..

-Re the 'VIOLET' dice, thie Biennais suggestion came from a dice collector who also has similar dice with the same logo + script, monkey with raised goblet facing to the right. Didn't know or suggest re the other marks/logos..

-A good spot that monkey facing the other way, which can also see in items (tokens?) from gaming sets by Biennais. Either not Biennais or tooling mistake by the dicemaker?

-Re maker of dice.. Am suggesting all made by the same maker. The punched marks all seem to be consistent in their technique..again also suggested by said dice collector.

-Re item origin, the stool is English vernacular late 18th century, the inlays depict a stately home in Warwick and dice made most likely in London and exported. In this case seemingly meant for Paris if the Biennais link and French auction house goldsmiths' punches suggeations hold. One can then speculate further that as these clearly never made it across the Channel, may well have been due to Napoleonic hostilities.

-Re wooden game board.. My thought is that whoever happened to get hold of these 500 (just under) dice got rather creative by inlaying two facades of a stately home which are incredibly accurate, with different dice numbers denoting various architectural features. So possibly the dice maker stuck with stock, or by a bored butler given the dice by the Lord of the Manor? No suggestion of game board made by Biennais. Whichever way, someone very familiar with the property and took some time..

Essentially an interesting piece of folk art which hopefully steo by step will unveil its history and how came to be.

[dognose]

As the house in question appears to be that of Charlecote Park, then could the item perhaps have a connection with George Lucy? If so, could the dice have been acquired on the Continent during his European tour of 1756 and 1758?

See: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/charle ... eorge-lucy

Trev.

[JAY541]

As the house in question appears to be that of Charlecote Park, then could the item perhaps have a connection with George Lucy? If so, could the dice have been acquired on the Continent during his European tour of 1756 and 1758?

See: https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/charle ... eorge-lucy

Trev.

Hi Trev,

Yes, correct its Charlecote.

That's a very interesting angle which will explore. Have emailed the house during the week, however not heard back yet. Will probably take a trip over in the near future and dig a little deeper..

Regards
Andrzej

[JAY541]

Hello
Here are some comments regarding this unusual item:

-Silversmith makers’s marks in France were legislated in terms of shape, size and placement. You wouldn’t expect to find a silversmith’s mark on an object made of ivory, bone or wood.
-It was not usual to have silversmiths retail other fancy goods.
-Martin-Guillaume Biennais started out as a tabletier, making boxes, toiletry cases, gaming boards, and small furnishings. He subcontracted out any silver fittings. After the Revolution, guilds were abolished in 1791, so Biennais could register a mark as a silversmith without having gone through the usual training and sponsorship required.
-Biennais had either a stroke of luck or a moment of business genius when he advanced credit to a young Napoléon Bonaparte for the purchase of a toiletry case. Napoléon never forgot his support, eventually naming Biennais silversmith to the Emperor, thereby making his career.
-The mark you say is the trademark for Biennais’ shop - Au Singe Violet - isn’t clear enough to me to attribute it to Biennais. Furthermore, the monkey in profile appears to be facing right, whereas the monkey in Biennais’ trademark and silver maker’s mark faces left.
-Are you suggesting that the gaming tiles in your set were marked by different makers? This to me would not seem logical.
-Do you think the object was made in England with French gaming pieces? This would be unusual in my opinion.
-The wooden game board doesn’t look as refined as Biennais’ usual production. Biennais hot-stamped his wood furniture with Biennais Au Singe Violet, all in uppercase.

Thank you for showing us this object.

Regards.

For more information about Biennais:

Dion-Tenenbaum, Anne. L’orfèvre de Napoléon: Martin-Guillaume Biennais. Paris, Editions de la Réunion des musées nationaux, 2003.

Tamisier-Vétois, Isabelle et al. Meubles à secrets, secrets de meubles. Dijon, Éditions Faton, 2018.

Re:

"Furthermore, the monkey in profile appears to be facing right, whereas the monkey in Biennais’ trademark and silver maker’s mark faces left."


Just Googliing Biennais further, came across this French website;

https://www.biusante.parisdescartes.fr/ ... -napoleon/

Where Biennais' monkey logo changes from facing left to facing right after appointment as Goldsmith to the Emperor in 1804, as script also added at the top of the artwork header. With the naval blockade of 1806, this could fit my speculation of dice not making it to France.

Screenshots below:





Regards
Andrzej

[JayT]

Hello again
Thanks for the interesting information about gaming pieces and dice.
I don’t know anything about these items, but I do know a bit about the French silver marking system, and French silver makers. I can assure you Biennais’ silver maker’s mark did not change in appearance after he was appointed silversmith to Napoléon’s court. Biennais registered his mark 3 times, in 1801-1802, 1804-1805, and 1806. The monkey faced left in profile when his mark was first registered, and stayed facing left on his subsequent marks. The mark was a lozenge-shaped reserve with border, a monkey holding a cup facing left with a pellet on either side, and a B below. How the monkey was depicted on trade cards and other advertising material is another story.

Biennais’ mark is well-documented. The most authoritative source is:

Arminjon, Catherine et al. Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d’ouvrages d’or er d’argent de Paris et de la Seine. v. I, 1798-1838. Paris, Imprimerie nationale, 1991. No. 00459, p. 84.

And the work cited earlier by Dion-Tenenbaum.

Regards.

[JAY541]

Hello again
Thanks for the interesting information about gaming pieces and dice.
I don’t know anything about these items, but I do know a bit about the French silver marking system, and French silver makers. I can assure you Biennais’ silver maker’s mark did not change in appearance after he was appointed silversmith to Napoléon’s court. Biennais registered his mark 3 times, in 1801-1802, 1804-1805, and 1806. The monkey faced left in profile when his mark was first registered, and stayed facing left on his subsequent marks. The mark was a lozenge-shaped reserve with border, a monkey holding a cup facing left with a pellet on either side, and a B below. How the monkey was depicted on trade cards and other advertising material is another story.

Biennais’ mark is well-documented. The most authoritative source is:

Arminjon, Catherine et al. Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d’ouvrages d’or er d’argent de Paris et de la Seine. v. I, 1798-1838. Paris, Imprimerie nationale, 1991. No. 00459, p. 84.

And the work cited earlier by Dion-Tenenbaum.

Regards.

Thanks again..

So then not a case of silver/gold punches/marks, as suggest maybe relevant to non metal wares..cards,tokens and possibly even dice.. Monkey facing right 1804 on..

Only exploring the silver/goldsmiths'marks after direction from previously mentioned auction house that sold Biennais' items.

Regards
Andrzej

[JayT]

Good luck in your continuing research on this object.
Regards.

[JAY541]

Good luck in your continuing research on this object.
Regards.

Thanks..