Need opinions about die cutters and methods

[Francais]

I was just talking to a friend about marks and die cutters. I always presumed that cities had die cutters available, whereas rural silversmiths had to cut their own. I based this on the fact that for instance early Mississippi Valley silversmiths often had very large crudely cut marks. Also any number of early silversmiths, again in more out of the way places, made mistakes like cutting an "S" or an "N" backwards. That was certainly something a die cutter would not do. I also have seen some very intricately cut French pseudo hallmarks, one copied the French second coq mark for second standard provincial silver. I would hope the Trev has run across some die cutters ads that would give us some concrete information on the subject. But I imagine many contributors can shed some light on the subject. I guessed that stamps were cut out of softer steel with harder steel gravers, but that is just a guess, and I could be wrong as I don't remember reading anything about it. Also my understanding is that in places like Britain and France a maker's mark was destroyed on his death (except if his widow used it for a brief period). But was this a formal thing, like the popes seal, and was it also a tradition in all countries. I know of a few occasions where American stamps were not destroyed.
I hope this is a topic others find interesting as it would fill a gap in my knowledge base.
Maurice

[JLDoggett]

I am unsure there were many stamp makers or even die-cutters who did not rely on a wide-spread industry basis. I would have to think that there were a few available who made maker's stamps through an exchange of letters with those who needed them. If you think about it: 3-4 stamp-makers (with assistants or apprentices) could supply the entire U.S needs. The average stamp would take a craftsman a day to make, over a 3 day period (time would be needed for annealing the steel and other parts of the process).

Today there are only 2 places in the U.S. that I know of where stamps or punches can be ordered. I make my own, then again I learned die-cutting when I worked for Towle's and tool-making as a youth. I started to write an article on the process but illness moved it to the back-burner. Maybe I should resurrect it and finish.

[Francais]

On your first point, wouldn't a die maker have a lot of extra work in the form of cutting seals, especially stone seals. I am always surprised at the number of early ads that mention seals being for sale as part of the silversmith's inventory. While a silversmith could certainly engrave a silver seal, stone or hard metal ones would presumably be done better by a die cutter. The existence of so many reversed letters, etc, would tend to show that at least some silversmiths weren't used to cutting them.
On your second, please I for one would hope you could at the very least give us an idea of what is involved. I am selling off some dies I have had for years, and I find the whole profession fascinating.
One final question. Do you, or anyone else, know if there are real advances, lasers etc., in the profession today. My concern is the copying of old marks, I realize it is probably past the pay grade of most fakers, but I wonder if someone couldn't go to the right machine shop and order an exact copy of a Paul Revere stamp?
Maurice

[amena]

I believe that with the technique of EDM one can produce a good copy of any punch, so at least I was told by the manufacturer of punches in my hometown. But it is a very costly matter, and I do not think it's worth it just for a few fake items.
Best
Amena

[JLDoggett]

Maurice,

A hard-stone seal would be cut by a lapidist or gem-cutter, many would have been cut in Ider Oberstein, Germany. Certain types of stone could be cut locally but it often shows in the finished product. Larger cities might have a lapidist with a higher level of skill, but they were not very common. A die-cutter typically works in steel and it requires different skills to cut in hard-stone. Many jewelers would have a stock of pre-cut seals with single initials in different fonts available to be mounted in rings, fobs or seals. The ornate seals with crests, monograms, or unusual initials (Q, U, X, Y, and Z were not a standard stocked pre-cut stone) would have to be ordered in to suit a client's desires. Remember this was vastly different time when people were more willing to wait for things to be made.

"The existence of so many reversed letters, etc, would tend to show that at least some silversmiths weren't used to cutting them." How correct you are. Just as a silversmith's continued use of a damaged punch, to me, could be evidence of a craftsman awaiting the delivery of a new punch. Logic dictates that a craftsman would need to continue producing wares while awaiting the punch, and I can easily picture him cringing each time he used a damaged punch knowing it is his signature.

I will do what I can to get the article done on stamp-making, I want to do it with some photographs as I make it. i like to keep old skills in use, you never know when the electricity will stop.

As Amanda said "I believe that with the technique of EDM one can produce a good copy of any punch" is very true. Though costly (the average maker's stamp can run in the 300.00-500.00 US$ range) when you consider a Revere spoon can being in 7,000.00 - 10,000.00 US$ the costs would be easily recovered if most of his existing pieces were not fairly well known. That is why the maker's mark should never accepted as the only defining attribute when qualifying a piece. I am sure our European members know of the continued use of the Faberge stamps well into the 50's on very poorly made pieces.

[Francais]

I see your point on the stones. I had to look up EDM.
I for one will be eagerly awaiting the article, but keep in mind impatiently.
Maurice

[dognose]

Alfred Flack - Sydney - 1867

Trev.

[Francais]

I am still wondering about the practice of destroying dies on the silversmiths death. I just transcribed a late 18th early 19th c American silversmith's estate inventory, and it mentions the widow buying the stamp along with some silver.
Maurice

[JLDoggett]

That may depend on the location of the silversmith. I have some vague recollection of the stamps of English silversmiths being registered and one would assume when his death was reported to the local guild-hall only his widow had the right to use it. I know when I was a youth, the jeweler I apprenticed to had the stamps of several earlier jewelers, not that he would have used them but because they could be reworked into new stamps. In Asia there is the tradition of continued generations using the same stamp or chop to mark their wares in which case you need to know styles and potential periods of use to ascertain the correctness of an item.

[Francais]

I think we both heard the same thing, as I said above, but I really don't remember where I heard about either England or France, and their rules. I believe both countries allowed the widow to use the stamp, but only for a period of time as I believe both eventually both countries required the widow to register her own mark.
Hopefully some of our friends across the water will help fill us in.
Maurice

[dognose]

As far as punches used by British silversmiths are concerned, I am not aware of any rules, legally or morally, as to why the punches of deceased smiths could not have continued after the death of the silversmith in question. Indeed, it was common practice for the descendants of the business to do just that. There are many examples of the son continuing to use the same punch as his father, especially if the business was just a continuation and was still known by the same name.

As time moved on, this is even more in evidence, as well established firms gradually changed hands due to the death or retirement of the owner or partners in the business.

The above, of course, only relates to makers' punches, official punches are destroyed regularly, an event that is duly witnessed and documented by the official assay offices.

Trev.

[JLDoggett]

Another olde-wives'-tale laid to rest. Funny how information can change as it crosses the pond, sort of like a bad Marconi connection.

[JayT]

In eighteenth century Paris, silversmiths and goldsmiths were the most tightly controlled profession of all. A silversmith or his family had to turn in his punch to the guild when his situation changed: retirement, bankruptcy, death. The punch was destroyed and the silversmith’s name struck from the register. A widow could continue to use her late husband’s punch to mark objects already in production or objects not yet sold. If she wished to continue the business beyond clearing inventory, she had to register with her own punch. This process is well documented in the literature, see in particular Nocq, Henry, Le poinçon de Paris.

Despite tight control, could punches somehow escape the usual procedure in France? Rumours and myths circulate about objects being faked using genuine early makers’ punches. In my opinion this is rare, although easy-to-spot cast marks can be found.

[oel]

Hi,

In the Netherlands the makers’ mark is considered to be a responsibility mark with specific rules for makers’ marks and the rules were specified by the Inspector General of the Mint under jurisdiction of the Interior Minister.
For example on September 6th 1826 the Mint Board decides that the ‘French type of makers’ mark, in case of decease of the worker, may not be continued by the aforesaid widow, not even upon any internal change. In the past the high price of makers’ marks then f 1 guilder apiece, had caused the practice that widows or other heirs continued the mark of the deceased, after a small addition to it, such as a cross, a star or a letter W for; Weduwe=Widow.
It also happened that an unchanged mark was continued by a successor. This was only permitted after submission of a written statement, whereby the successor declared himself liable for any and all offenses of his predecessor.
The same applied during the reign of the guilds and normally, after the dead of a guild member, in Utrecht a little skull was entered behind his maker’s mark on the copper guild plate with date entry and if applicable, the new widows/heir mark responsibility mark or makers’ mark. However there are some exceptions and inconsistencies; like today it is not important what you know but who you know and money talks.

Oel.

Ref; Netherlands Responsibility marks from 1797 and Merken der Utrechtse edelsmeden 1598-1740

[Francais]

Thanks that clears up England and France, and I actually found the Dutch rules, like taking responsibility for previously produced items even more interesting.
I wonder if The French in America were more likely to destroy the deceased's stamp than the English here were. In any case I have heard of no controls here, although I guess some communities could have had some.