G'day from downunda.
I am totally unfamiliar with silver hallmarking and have been cruising the internet to find out more info, but am having trouble.
I have an old spoon (unknown heritage, except it has been in the family for over 50 years). It is in pretty bad shape with hardly any plating left on it. It was commandeered to duty in the piggery, dosing out medicine to the animals, so you can imagine its' condition now.
It has seven 'mark' along the stem.
I have had a long look at various web sites and books from my local library and even bought a small makers mark book from an antique store, but still cannot identify any of the marks.
When looking at the spoon is there a direction to read the marks? ie from the bowl end or the handle end???
Whilst the spoon probably has no real $$ value I'd like to at least know its origins.
Can someone suggest some steps to get an identification, or particular sites or books to do more research?
I can post a photo if that is allowed.
Thanks for any assistance.
Lostboy.
.
How to start identification
There is no general guidelines.
Marks can be struc in random order. They can even be struck upside down. And there is no assurance that they all are struck same way. You can easily experience that one mark of a serie is up/down.
You start here http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html
or use a general book like Tardy - read articles of silver, but also start learning of style and design.
We have a lot of variables - as time, place. And when you combine those you will see that for most places country could vary in time - Gernamy is not always Germany, but independent states, part of another country etc.
First find out - silver or plated? No idea in looking among silver if plated. As in periods makes of ElectroPlated used marks that should look like silver marks - just to confuse the (un skilled) customer.
I soppose that is where you are now. have identified plater, but cannot read marks. get help - picture can be a start - here you can get assistance. Take advantage and get an idea of how marks are read. They used Gotic letters. A pair of letters can actually be 3 because they used part of a letter as part of second letter etc.
Start here viewtopic.php?t=10 read the Do's and reflect - why each bulletpoint. When you reflect of a bulletpoint, why has Forum Master written so? then you start getting an idea of the search process.
So my advice start to read a bit, then post photo and i am sure that someone will assist you in how to read your specific mark.
Once you get an idea of marks it becomes fascinating.
And one more point - silver marks are ment to cast ligt, identify.
Silverplate marks often used to confuse.
.
Marks can be struc in random order. They can even be struck upside down. And there is no assurance that they all are struck same way. You can easily experience that one mark of a serie is up/down.
You start here http://www.925-1000.com/foreign_marks.html
or use a general book like Tardy - read articles of silver, but also start learning of style and design.
We have a lot of variables - as time, place. And when you combine those you will see that for most places country could vary in time - Gernamy is not always Germany, but independent states, part of another country etc.
First find out - silver or plated? No idea in looking among silver if plated. As in periods makes of ElectroPlated used marks that should look like silver marks - just to confuse the (un skilled) customer.
I soppose that is where you are now. have identified plater, but cannot read marks. get help - picture can be a start - here you can get assistance. Take advantage and get an idea of how marks are read. They used Gotic letters. A pair of letters can actually be 3 because they used part of a letter as part of second letter etc.
Start here viewtopic.php?t=10 read the Do's and reflect - why each bulletpoint. When you reflect of a bulletpoint, why has Forum Master written so? then you start getting an idea of the search process.
So my advice start to read a bit, then post photo and i am sure that someone will assist you in how to read your specific mark.
Once you get an idea of marks it becomes fascinating.
And one more point - silver marks are ment to cast ligt, identify.
Silverplate marks often used to confuse.
.
Thanks for your reply.
Confusing as mud. I'd have thought there would be a standard form of marking. ie the guild approves your makers 'mark' and registers it then they also define the way it is applied to your jewellery etc.
Seems as if everyone did their own thing, country wise etc.
Back to the research!!
.
Confusing as mud. I'd have thought there would be a standard form of marking. ie the guild approves your makers 'mark' and registers it then they also define the way it is applied to your jewellery etc.
Seems as if everyone did their own thing, country wise etc.
Back to the research!!
.
Thanks Trev.
I'll do some more research and see if I can find more out from this site, it is really interesting.
I'll scan the spoon and the marks and post photos as soon as I make sure of the image posting rules. I've read them and want to make sure mine are acceptable first before attempting to post them.
I wish there was a standard way to read the marks impressed ie left to right. Some of the marks on the spoon I don't know if they are upseide down or not.
I'll get there eventually.
.
I'll do some more research and see if I can find more out from this site, it is really interesting.
I'll scan the spoon and the marks and post photos as soon as I make sure of the image posting rules. I've read them and want to make sure mine are acceptable first before attempting to post them.
I wish there was a standard way to read the marks impressed ie left to right. Some of the marks on the spoon I don't know if they are upseide down or not.
I'll get there eventually.
.
What you describe is an commen problem. We all have it - but very soon things starts to lighten.
What you requested is the case when silver. But each country had regulations of its own. You should see this in a historic content. Their problem was to regulate standards according to their needs. I denmark the coin was 13½lod - and as silver items should correspond with that standard was same. It was the monetary system that required. When this was not the case everybody gave up the regulations - today noone controlles. you are still not permitted not to tell the truth - but the interest of state/goverment is limited.
When case of plated - the main interest is to sell. Therefor marks are similar - but you must still tell the truth, so marks are only similar. In Denmark the Electro Plate manufactures invented a mark with 2 towers - as 3 towers was official mark for silver since 1608. They indicated that 2 towered silver was almost as good as 3 towered. The saying was "When you buy 3 towered you bye silver for yourself and your children and their children, when you buy 2 towered you buy silver for yourself and your children. Therefore everybody knew why not save the money - no need to buy for grandchildren....etc"
As to your question - when you start learning very soon you spot plated-marks, to identify is another thing. But you can get start-help here.
You are not the only one - I always look among the plated silver. Often I find solid silver. My last big scoop was 6 large soup spoons made 1806 by the same maker for the same customer. Fully solid silver marked in Copenhagen 1806. They lay between around some 20-30 spoons in same patern but in plate and from 1900-1920. Seller had not looked at mark just found - Ohh this popular plated patern - not seen that these were 6 of the originals. No need to say they are in my collection now.
.
What you requested is the case when silver. But each country had regulations of its own. You should see this in a historic content. Their problem was to regulate standards according to their needs. I denmark the coin was 13½lod - and as silver items should correspond with that standard was same. It was the monetary system that required. When this was not the case everybody gave up the regulations - today noone controlles. you are still not permitted not to tell the truth - but the interest of state/goverment is limited.
When case of plated - the main interest is to sell. Therefor marks are similar - but you must still tell the truth, so marks are only similar. In Denmark the Electro Plate manufactures invented a mark with 2 towers - as 3 towers was official mark for silver since 1608. They indicated that 2 towered silver was almost as good as 3 towered. The saying was "When you buy 3 towered you bye silver for yourself and your children and their children, when you buy 2 towered you buy silver for yourself and your children. Therefore everybody knew why not save the money - no need to buy for grandchildren....etc"
As to your question - when you start learning very soon you spot plated-marks, to identify is another thing. But you can get start-help here.
You are not the only one - I always look among the plated silver. Often I find solid silver. My last big scoop was 6 large soup spoons made 1806 by the same maker for the same customer. Fully solid silver marked in Copenhagen 1806. They lay between around some 20-30 spoons in same patern but in plate and from 1900-1920. Seller had not looked at mark just found - Ohh this popular plated patern - not seen that these were 6 of the originals. No need to say they are in my collection now.
.
OK I am stumped. I have spent hours pouring over the internet and all the books at my local library. Bought a copy of "Bradbury's book of Hallmarks", but still can not understand the markings on my spoon.
Here's the photos:
I know the spoon is in pretty poor shape, but that is to be expected after the years of neglect as a "working" spoon in a piggery....
We are going to let "Cook and Sons" of Brisbane have a look at replating it. With the instructions not to loose the markings under a too thick coating. But we have been told that they are a good shop.
So could someone help me out where to look or interpret these markings.
Any help or guidance muchly appreciated.
Thanks
lostboy.
admin photo edit- images edited and cleaned
.
Here's the photos:
I know the spoon is in pretty poor shape, but that is to be expected after the years of neglect as a "working" spoon in a piggery....
We are going to let "Cook and Sons" of Brisbane have a look at replating it. With the instructions not to loose the markings under a too thick coating. But we have been told that they are a good shop.
So could someone help me out where to look or interpret these markings.
Any help or guidance muchly appreciated.
Thanks
lostboy.
admin photo edit- images edited and cleaned
.
Warning the picture is upsite down so Isaved it at my computer to turn. When I uploaded to imagehost and made preview here - a message came. That my computer was infected and the online scan would clean.
Naturally i turned everything off - the virus is in this on-line scan.
So now my McAfee work in back to do a prober cleaning.
lostboy are you as lost as in your name or are you hawing fun?
.
Naturally i turned everything off - the virus is in this on-line scan.
So now my McAfee work in back to do a prober cleaning.
lostboy are you as lost as in your name or are you hawing fun?
.
Photos - virus
No not having fun.
I scanned the images from a copier to a .jpg file then uploaded them to photobucket and posted here using the links as per the site instructions.
I have used other forums and have done photos the exact same way without any trobles.
The files are .jpg and don't execute so how can they cause trouble.
My pc is OK according to AVG etc and my recent virus checks come out clean. So I don't understand how my photos could cause trouble.
You coudn't go back to my photobucket account to download the file so how did you 'capture' it to put into your pc?
Sorry for any trouble I caused, but it is definitely not intentional.
lostboy.
.
I scanned the images from a copier to a .jpg file then uploaded them to photobucket and posted here using the links as per the site instructions.
I have used other forums and have done photos the exact same way without any trobles.
The files are .jpg and don't execute so how can they cause trouble.
My pc is OK according to AVG etc and my recent virus checks come out clean. So I don't understand how my photos could cause trouble.
You coudn't go back to my photobucket account to download the file so how did you 'capture' it to put into your pc?
Sorry for any trouble I caused, but it is definitely not intentional.
lostboy.
.
Dont know what happened. But a warning is prober when my computer all of a sudden is attacked by spyware. Dont know which part of the process, but when on-line scan (look alike Microsoft messages - Look alike please note look alike, it is prober to be on guard) I have prober virus software - some members might not have bought an updated version.
For your marks - you turned them wrong.
At right I am sure it says EP - in that case it is Electro Plated.
Going left you have an S - and that is sopposed to be confused with S for Silver. But I dont think that it has any meaning.
Next an x in an + - also sopposed to lookalike silver dont know origin
The &S for and Son - some maker and his Son that is a real mark for an electoplater second generation
First 2 marks is maker his initials - dont know who.
But we have a lot of skilled members som someone will proberly identify.
.
For your marks - you turned them wrong.
At right I am sure it says EP - in that case it is Electro Plated.
Going left you have an S - and that is sopposed to be confused with S for Silver. But I dont think that it has any meaning.
Next an x in an + - also sopposed to lookalike silver dont know origin
The &S for and Son - some maker and his Son that is a real mark for an electoplater second generation
First 2 marks is maker his initials - dont know who.
But we have a lot of skilled members som someone will proberly identify.
.
Thanks for your reply.
So you read the marks from the right to the left, is that correct?
I was pretty sure it was electroplated from the condition of it, but still cannot decipher that first mark.
When you say the next mark which you think is an S does not have any meaning, what do you mean? Would the maker of the spoon put it there to perhaps make it look more impressive? Sort of him saying "look at the hallmarks on my spoon they must be good so the spoon must be very good". Almost like false advertising.
Could some of the marks on my spoon not be registered, just made up by the maker?
.
So you read the marks from the right to the left, is that correct?
I was pretty sure it was electroplated from the condition of it, but still cannot decipher that first mark.
When you say the next mark which you think is an S does not have any meaning, what do you mean? Would the maker of the spoon put it there to perhaps make it look more impressive? Sort of him saying "look at the hallmarks on my spoon they must be good so the spoon must be very good". Almost like false advertising.
Could some of the marks on my spoon not be registered, just made up by the maker?
.
No registration as in silver. We talk silverplated.
Marks should be read from left to right. I just did it onwards becase I had no clue of the first.
The marks are not false like that. You should see them in the context they were set. We have had hundreds of years of tradition. Tradition and pressius silver. Silver that was un-toshable for every man. Only the few could use silver. Then you had an invension Old sheffild plate - not silver but a product that could reduce the amount of silver needed to produce a product.
The price of a silver product was made up of raw material + approx 5-10% in manpower - for the silversmith.
The price of silver (raw material) was 30times higher than that of brass. OSP ment that the raw material became cheaper. Then EP was invented.
When EP everybody could afford silver. So the working class could feel the taste of the upper class and nobility, they could also afford "silver"...
Now the EP manufacturer - knew that. The silversmith knew that the competition was hard - therefor the silver marks as in the days before gave security.
The EP manufactorer wanted to say - my product is good. Therefor they started setting marks - marks as everybody knew was on silver. But silver marks was only permitted - when the product was in silver.
So they invented marks - nobody was interested in controlling. They only controlled that silver was what silver should be.
That left the EP maker ....... continue elaboration yourself..
.
Marks should be read from left to right. I just did it onwards becase I had no clue of the first.
The marks are not false like that. You should see them in the context they were set. We have had hundreds of years of tradition. Tradition and pressius silver. Silver that was un-toshable for every man. Only the few could use silver. Then you had an invension Old sheffild plate - not silver but a product that could reduce the amount of silver needed to produce a product.
The price of a silver product was made up of raw material + approx 5-10% in manpower - for the silversmith.
The price of silver (raw material) was 30times higher than that of brass. OSP ment that the raw material became cheaper. Then EP was invented.
When EP everybody could afford silver. So the working class could feel the taste of the upper class and nobility, they could also afford "silver"...
Now the EP manufacturer - knew that. The silversmith knew that the competition was hard - therefor the silver marks as in the days before gave security.
The EP manufactorer wanted to say - my product is good. Therefor they started setting marks - marks as everybody knew was on silver. But silver marks was only permitted - when the product was in silver.
So they invented marks - nobody was interested in controlling. They only controlled that silver was what silver should be.
That left the EP maker ....... continue elaboration yourself..
.
go to this page http://www.925-1000.com/silverplate_A.html
start by A and go around every page until Z
Get familiar with the letters tha A the B the C soon you will start seing the gothic letters as what they - simply a way of writing a b c d etc etc..
.
start by A and go around every page until Z
Get familiar with the letters tha A the B the C soon you will start seing the gothic letters as what they - simply a way of writing a b c d etc etc..
.
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