HELP; Russian Monogram on Faberge

[monogram]

Would someone be able to help me regarding this monogram? I do not know what it stands for? I think it's Russian Tsar because of the crown located over the monogram.

The Fabergé item was made 1895 and are indeed authentic (confirmed by specialists and auction houses), so there's no need to discuss the "authenticity" of the item as I only wonder about the monogram.

The monogram; first sight makes me think "WS/SW", at a closer look the "W" can be an "A", the "W" and the pattern can also be "JN", or "JSN". I think "W" can indicate "the third" as well? Does someone recognize this monogram? What or which person does it stand for?

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
I do not understand why you did not ask the specialists and the auctionhouse about the provenance of the object(s) - they must know from whom they got it....
It is noticeable that the monogram WS or SW is engraved in Latin letters - so the customer must have been an European. Normally, the letter of the family name is highlighted by a hatching or the like, which is not the case here! - Strange. The monogram is not typical Russian - see photo - it is European style and must be made later.
The crown is the crown of a crown prince - very strange. Many questionmarks. Without a photo of the object(s) one can not say more.

Russian monograms


Different European crowns


Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

Thank you!

Here's one more picture.

[Qrt.S]

Would you be so kind and show a close-up of the marks? I would be interested in seeing them. Mind my saying but a verifications of an auction house or specialist is only their personal view, nothing more, nothing less. I must say that I share Zolotnik's opinion a strange case indeed. What makes it more strange is the engraved crown. It is not a Russian engraving. To me the initials are WS because the S is a bit bigger, but...?

[monogram]

[Qrt.S]

OK thanks, looks good. The assayer AC is Aleksandr Vladislavovich Skovronsky 1894-1908 in Moscow. But the engraving is still a mystery.

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
nice story!

The Fabergé item was made 1895 and are indeed authentic (confirmed by specialists and auction houses), so there's no need to discuss the "authenticity" of the item as I only wonder about the monogram.

To make an end to this phony story, the 8 piece "ensemble" bears several different marks of silversmiths - some original, some fakes. The sugar tongs are from PJS (Silventoinen, Pekka in St: Petersburg), the sugar sifter is from ГРАЧЕВЪ ( Gratschev brothers in St. Petersburg) and so on. The koffee -sugar-milk vessels are former European with fake Russian marks. Later the"ensemble" was engraved, pretend to give the impression of a closed unit. No trace of Fabergé brands - the from you shown forth marks coming from somewhere - but not from this silver.
Some photos:





The forum is no playground - it is for Russian silver enthusiasts who know their trade - remember that!

Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

What are you talking about? It's not fake. But sure, you are right and all high-end auction houses are wrong. And as you write, some are real, some are fake. I got a real one. You should do your homework before coming with such comments.

[dognose]

Hi Monogram,

Welcome to the Forum.

Can you please clarify that the marks you have shown, are the marks from this coffee-pot, and that there are no other marks present.

Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
it is very easy to convince me: show the single objects with their marks. You know, a photo tells more than thousand words or as we formulate it more drastic: no photo - it does not happened!

Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

Not best pictures but you can see all marks are at one single item. Ridicilous.

Now we can focuse on the monogram?

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
I do not know how much knowledge about Russian hallmarking laws/habits you have. Faberg´worked in Russia, therefore the laws were mandatory for him like any other silversmith too.
Just a refresher: every single part of an object consisting of several parts had to be marked. Example: a tea pot had a body, handle, lid and spout. All this parts had to be marked with certain control marks. As always your mini photos do not show this statutory marks. Conclusion: Fake. By the way - Fabergé was next other aspects mostly sought after especially because of the outstanding quality and markmanshift of his objects. Do you really think that your items fulfill these high standards - regardless of the lack of control marks?
All further discussions you make better with the specialists who have confirmed the authenticity and the Auction House who sold it- here you are in the wrong place.

Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

Hi monogram -
I do not know how much knowledge about Russian hallmarking laws/habits you have. Faberg´worked in Russia, therefore the laws were mandatory for him like any other silversmith too.
Just a refresher: every single part of an object consisting of several parts had to be marked. Example: a tea pot had a body, handle, lid and spout. All this parts had to be marked with certain control marks. As always your mini photos do not show this statutory marks. Conclusion: Fake. By the way - Fabergé was next other aspects mostly sought after especially because of the outstanding quality and markmanshift of his objects. Do you really think that your items fulfill these high standards - regardless of the lack of control marks?
All further discussions you make better with the specialists who have confirmed the authenticity and the Auction House who sold it- here you are in the wrong place.

Regards
Zolotnik

Not true, lid and body has to be marked, never handle or spout. Then you can show me some pictures that's confirming this.

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
here your shown marks, first Moscow, second from St. Petersburg. If this marks are on one object - than something is very wrong. Please note the wrong F (Ф) like FAKE!


here the officially Fabergé marks from the different towns, Kiew used Moscow marks
St.Petersburg

Moscow

see the correct F!
London


Source: Géza von Habsburg. Fabergé expert No 1

Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

This does not have anything to do with your claim regarding the marks on the "handle". You did not answer my questions. As you said; if you dont have a picture of it - it never excisted.

You claim it's marked both "Moscow" and "St. Petersburg"? No, it's not, the double headed eagle does not indicate St. Petersburg. The double headed eagle are used above the K. Faberge mark in 1895 (logo for this time of period) and has nothing to do with where it were produced.

[Zolotnik]

Hi monogram -
you have a source for your assertion? Surely not! I have said all I have to say - now use your common sense. Furthe discussions lead nowhere. Be happy with your Fauxbergé...




Regards
Zolotnik

[monogram]

Hi monogram -
you have a source for your assertion? Surely not! I have said all I have to say - now use your common sense. Furthe discussions lead nowhere. Be happy with your Fauxbergé...




Regards
Zolotnik

Cant see a single Fabergé mark .....

[dognose]

Hi Monogram,

I am no expert on Russian silver, but one thing I have learnt over the years is that under Russian legislation every detachable part on a piece of silverware must be marked. 'Detachable' that is, pre-assembly, anything that has to soldered, hinged, riveted, etc. must be marked.

Trev.

[monogram]

Hi Monogram,

I am no expert on Russian silver, but one thing I have learnt over the years is that under Russian legislation every detachable part on a piece of silverware must be marked. 'Detachable' that is, pre-assembly, anything that has to soldered, hinged, riveted, etc. must be marked.

Trev.

Thank you very much for confirming this. The only detachable part on this coffee pot are the lid and it's marked.

[dognose]

No, you mis-understand, the spout and handle are separate parts and thus should be marked.

Trev.