Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

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trevorg
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Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby trevorg » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:10 am

Hello,
I would appreciate it if anyone can help in identifying the crest on this pair of William and Mary tazze. The tazze have the makers mark of Samuel Hood and were assayed in London in 1692.
Thanks and regards,
Trevor
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MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:09 am

I'm fairly new to coats of arms research but I started an attempt at identifying this coat of arms using a piece-meal approach.

The dexter (right - male) side of the shield looks to be a union of the Grove and Cooper arms

The sinister (left - female) side of the shield looks to be the Hooke arms

The engraved arms on your tazze could be from the union of Thomas Grove and Elizabeth Hooke in 1686.

Reviewing the genealogy tree, an open question would be if it was possible for Thomas Grove to have inherited a Grove/Cooper arms from his uncle Sir William Hanham, 1st Baronet after his marriage to Elizabeth Cooper.

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Grove Coat of Arms
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Cooper Coat of Arms
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Hooke Coat of Arms
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MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:19 am

I used the preview button and still managed to up mix my lefts and rights.

Correction:

The dexter (left - male)
The sinister (right - female)

Clarification:
"The engraved arms on your tazze could be from the union of Thomas Grove and Elizabeth Hooke in 1686." this is assuming these tazze would have been acquired by Thomas and Elizabeth Grove 6 years or later after their marriage.

MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:52 am

Looking a little further in the genealogy tree, it appears John Grove married his not-so-distant relation Eleanor Hanham.

While the resulting arms would have negated the need for Thomas Grove to have inherited a combined Grove/Cooper arms, the dexter and sinister sides of the shield would have been arranged differently:

The dexter (left - male) would have been a quartered Grove/Hooke arms
The sinister (right - female) side would have needed to be the Cooper arms

Considering the arms are arranged differently, I think this scenario is not likely (not to mention that it also neglects the Hanham arms).

Genealogy References: http://www.thepeerage.com/p31195.htm#i311943

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MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:49 pm

It seems that the Cooper family arms may have been a red herring. There is another solution with the nearly identical Lambert arms that complies with English heraldic rules.

Elizabeth Lambert was the only recorded child of Edward Lambert breaking the Lambert male line of descent. This would have entitled Robert Grove to quarter his mother's Lambert arms with his father's Grove arms.

From Wikipedia - Quartering (Heraldry)

Strict rules apply in English Heraldry, both as to what arms may be displayed by way of quarterings, and the order in which they may be displayed. Men and women are always entitled to display the arms of their paternal line but are not usually entitled to display by way of quartering the arms of families from whom there is descent only through a female line (for example, the arms of a mother or grandmother or great-grandmother). An exception is made, however, if the female who breaks the male line of descent is a heraldic heiress—a woman who has no brothers, or whose brothers have died without issue. Such a woman is entitled to transmit her father's arms to her own children, who add them as a quartering.


Genealogy Reference: The Peerage

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trevorg
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby trevorg » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:01 pm

Thank you for taking time out to research this, it is good data. I concur that currently the most likely path to resolution is to follow the Lambert/Grove/Hooke route. Whilst the traceable Lambert family line currently seems to end at Edward Lambert I also need to understand why these (Grove and Lambert) early 17th century families, with no noted ancestry, would be entitled to use a coat of arms in the first place.
Elizabeth Hooke has noted ancestry through her father Sir Thomas Hooke, 1st Bt. so I understand her coat of arms connection. Mary Hanham also has noted ancestry through her brother (William Hanham, 1st Baron Hanham) but his coat of arms is different to that which is engraved, see below. Further research is necessary!
Once I have more information I will update the post.
Many thanks again for your time and effort.
Trevor.

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MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:35 pm

Hi Trevor,

Yes I agree this needs further research and I look forward to seeing your updates.

One thing to note is the right to display coats of arms extends to many of the landed gentry who may not be as well documented throughout history.

Wikipedia- Landed Gentry

The term gentry, some of whom were landed, included four separate groups in England:

  1. Baronets: a hereditary title, originally created in the 14th century and revived by King James in 1611, giving the holder the right to be addressed as Sir.
  2. Knights: originally a military rank, this status was increasingly awarded to civilians as a reward for service to the Crown. Holders have the right to be addressed as Sir, as are baronets, but unlike baronet, the title of knight is not hereditary.
  3. Esquires: originally men aspiring to knighthood, they were the principal attendants on a knight. After the Middle Ages the title of Esquire (Esq.) became an honour that could be conferred by the Crown, and by custom the holders of certain offices (such as barristers, lord mayor/mayor, justices of the peace, and higher officer ranks in the armed services) were deemed to be Esquires. (see Squire)[3]
  4. Gentlemen: possessors of a social status recognised as a separate title by the Statute of Additions of 1413. Generally men of high birth or rank, good social standing and wealth, and who did not need to work for a living, were considered gentlemen.
All of the first group, and very many of the last three, were "armigerous", having obtained the right to display a coat of arms.

trevorg
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby trevorg » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:05 pm

Hello,
My conclusion concurs with those expressed earlier, that the crest on this item does relate to the Grove/Lambert/Hooke families.

Robert Grove (1636-1695) who married Mary Hanham (1644-1688) in 1661 would be entitled to quarter the arms of his father, Thomas Grove (?-?), with those of his mother Elizabeth Lambert (1610-?).

Thomas Grove (1664-1738), the son of Robert Grove and Mary Hanham, and who would have been entitled to bear the arms of his father married Lady Elizabeth Hooke (1665-1726) in 1686 and her arms would have been incorporated sinister (Elizabeth was the daughter of Sir Thomas Hooke [1641-1678] and the brother of Sir Hele Hooke who gained the title of Baronet Hooke of Tangier Park) and these are the arms on each of the tazze.

I can find no family link, either by birth, marriage or death, to the assay date of 1692 so I assume that the item was purchased just as an item of plate for use by the family.

As an aside the Wilitshire Visitation by Queen Elizabeth 1st in 1565 confirmed on Robert Grove the right to "bear arms" which confirmed his status in Elizabethan England and I assume his coat of arms, granted in 1560 by the College of Heralds, dates from this period (Robert Grove was the great grandfather of Thomas Grove who married Elizabeth Lambert). The family seat at Ferne was purchased in 1563 and for those interested there is a book "The Grove Diaries: The Rise and Fall of an English Family, 1809-1925" which makes for compelling reading.

Thanks for your help and collaboration.
Trevor

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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:18 am

Interesting information, thank you for sharing this update.

MGArgent
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby MGArgent » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:46 pm

I was doing some unrelated coat of arms research and came across a few great resources. I decided to give Lambert another try and came up with some more info for you:

At the following link, if you search "Lambert" it is documented that Richard Lambert acquired arms in 1564:

Grantees of arms named in docquets and patents to the end of the seventeenth century,in the manuscripts preserved in the British museum, the Bodleian library, Oxford, Queens college, Oxford, Gonville and Caius college, Cambridge, and elsewhere, alphabetically arranged by the late Joseph Foster and contained in the Additional ms. no. 37,147, in the British museum. - Lambert, Richard, of London

Lambert, Richard, of London, gift 1564. (Harvey's Grants)...


Subsequently in the following reference: The Visitation of Wiltshire 1623 - Lambert

You will find that Richard Lambert of London was the father of Edmond Lambert, who was in turn the father of Edward Lambert of Wiltshire who was the father of the Elizabeth Lambert that married Thomas Grove.

trevorg
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Re: Crest on a pair of William and Mary tazze

Postby trevorg » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:41 am

These are really informative documents and will be useful for future research. I had only been able to trace Elizabeth’s ancestors back to her father and these documents enable this to trace back to the 16th century when their arms were granted. Thank you for sharing this.


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