Silver Whistle

[Edwinsford]

I have a silver whistle with the maker's mark PF on it. Does anyone know who this is?

[admin]

Where? When?

[Edwinsford]

The whistle came from a large country house in Carmarthenshire in Wales. The house was there, in different guises, since the 18h century. The whistle was left to me. There are four other marks on it but they are too small for me to read. I will probably need to get a jeweller to read them for me.

The whistle is in two parts - an outside case shaped a bit like a cannon, beautifully decorated and an inside piece which is the whistle. The inside clips into the outside on a sort of spring clip. There are silver marks on both pieces - the only one I can read being the makers mark - PF in a square to the left of the other 4 marks. That's all I have

[Waylander]

Hi

It is pure speculation without a photo, but the missing 4 marks may be the Town Mark / Lion Passant / Date Letter / Duty Mark for a piece 1784 - 1890. More speculation is that PF was an unusual mark, and a Phillip Freeman entered his mark in London in 1772 - could still have been working at late as 1800 or 1810.

Pure speculation! A photo please!

Waylander

[Edwinsford]

Thank you Waylander. I will post a pic as soon as I can.

[Edwinsford]

[Granmaa]

A picture of the hallmarks would clear things up, but from here it looks like London 1861.
Are you sure the maker isn't FF?

Miles

[admin]

You sure didn't make it easy, but I read the marks as London 1861 by Philip Firman. Aside from the maker, all of this information is available onsite with
British Hallmarks
as your starting point.
Regards, Tom

[Edwinsford]

Many thanks indeed and apologies for not making it easy - I had not posted a pic before or even used a digital camera. I had however looked at that weblink Tom and did not find Philip Firman or PF - which is why I came on here. Is he there? Does anyone know anything about him?

Sorry for so many questions but I am, quite clearly, not too au fait with all this.

[admin]

Hi,
We always hope that people with questions will access the site and come to the forum with a little foreknowledge. It saves us a lot of random research and wear and tear on the reference books.
Firmin is not listed as yet, still no clear image of his mark. There were two Phillip Firmins, which one depends on the date letter of your piece. Can you check the date letter chart and give us the precise year.

Thanks, Tom

[Granmaa]

Where did you manage to find Philip Firmin's mark Tom?

Miles

[admin]

Grimwade for Philip Venner - reg. 1823
Culme for Philip Smith - reg. 1876

[Edwinsford]

Firmin is not listed as yet, still no clear image of his mark. There were two Phillip Firmins, which one depends on the date letter of your piece. Can you check the date letter chart and give us the precise year.

Thanks, Tom

Thanks. I will try. My eyes are not good enough to see the marks as they are tiny and a little grubby. Anyway I will try to find a magnifying glass or take a better photograph.

[Edwinsford]

Here is another pic. I know it is not good enough and may not assist in identification. I need to get a camera with macro and to clean up the marks. Please advise on how to get the dirt out of the marks - plain old soap and water or something more specialised?

[Granmaa]

It is still hard to make out the date letter, but it looks most like 1866 to me.
Philip Firman seems too early.

I wouldn't bother cleaning the hallmarks on this.

[Edwinsford]

I've had better eyes than mine look at it and compare it with the date marks. The duty mark places it between 1838 and 1890 and the only two date marks it resembles in that period are 1864 and 1866 - we think. Problem is we can neither see the dot for the "i" of 1864 nor the tail of the L for 1886. Getting a magnifying glass, some light and a better camera.

If it is 1866 and too late for Philip Firmin - who could PF be?

Many thanks for guidance.

[admin]

I'm inclined to agree with the date of 1866, with a possibility that it is the "f" of 1861. As Miles points out, too early for Philip Smith Firman by a decade, leaving only Philip Venner Firmin as a possibility - within the documented marks. PVF registered his mark back in 1822 and while a 40 year silversmithing career in 19th century England was not an impossibility, it was unlikely.
Grimwade conjectures that PVF was the son of Samuel Firman, a late 18th cent. silver buttonmaker. Culme indicates a later firm of P. Firman & Sons. It would seem that the Firmins, an uncommon name, span a century of silversmithing through many generations.
I'll go out on a limb and conjecture that there was probably another working Firman between PVF & PSF, likely the son of PVF and they worked as Philip Venner Firman & Son while retaining the use of the PF mark.
I would imagine that Culme vol.I would have some biographical info on the family. Anyone have it handy?

Regards, Tom

[Edwinsford]

OK, I now have a better photograph and believe that the year is 1846:



Not certain however. Can anyone confirm or refute. It seems that some of the marks are upside down?

Tom, thanks for that great detail.

[dognose]

Hi,
Hard to be certain without a really clear photograph, but I'm leaning towards 1846,
Regards Trev.

[Granmaa]

It is certainly 1866. Compare these marks for 1846 and 1866.
It's the maker's mark that needs identifying.

Miles