Think this is Early English - Help Please

[englishladyfromkent]

Greetings - I'm back with a very tricky one I just cant find anything about. Hope someone (maybe you dognose?) can help please ?

BTW the ImageHost.org site is closed. I used which worked well I think.

This item is I believe an old English Games Marker case and counters. But I am by no means sure. If anyone can confirm or put me right on that, I would be most grateful.

Then the hallmark. It is the only hallmark, and has the letters that I think are 'LF' inside the open book.

I would be hugely grateful to know what this is and if the guess about games counters is correct. Thank you as ever.
X


X

[AG2012]

They are either coin-like reckoning counter (tokens) used as counters for calculation on a checkered board (The Exchequer!) similar to an abacus or as a money substitute in games. They were made of copper, tin, bronze etc. but rarely made of silver. I would suggest to check them for silver (the box, too) and then engage with numismatists. The maker ``IF`` will remain a mystery.

[englishladyfromkent]

Thank you so much for your reply. It is appreciated.

I am hoping that someone recognizes the open book single touchmark hallmark and even possibly identify IF or LF, I cant see it clearly enough to decide which.

I had some kind of note from admin, and apologise if I have made an error of some type. I followed your guide before posting and used as you also advised,

so am at a loss to know what I did wrong. But I do apologise and if this listing is in the wrong place, please feel free to relocate it.

Dognose is quiet, we usually have a few words, but he must be busy. Thank you to everyone who looked and tried to help. Much appreciated indeed.

[agphile]

When this item, or its identical twin, came up for auction on 9 December it was described as a late 17th century silver counter box. Such boxes are regularly so described and I assume the counters were normally for gaming. Therefore I would have thought it was a fair description though I did wonder whether early 18th century was as likely for the date. I think the box probably is silver, but not the counters. If yours is not the same box we need to worry about fakes.

[agphile]

I should have added that the auction house read the mark as IF but did not identify a maker. Neither can I.

[agphile]

I should also have added that the box appears not to have sold at the auction. Perhaps just an over-ambitious reserve, but perhaps a lack of enthusiasm among potential buyers. I must say that the more I look at the pictures, the more I doubt a 17th century English origin. The decoration seems wrong and the box seems relatively crudely made. I begin to wonder replica. But boxes are not my "thing" so don't rely on me as authoritative.

[trevorg]

Hi,
I have several 17th century silver counter and pill boxes including one with a similar "Tudor Rose" embossed to the top and with the same makers mark IF. Due to the very thin silver sheet they were made from they do appear to be both flimsy and crudely made however silver was in short supply at the start of the restoration period so it is not unusual to see boxes made like this.
If I could master posting images from an iPad then I would share some pictures of them with you.
Trevor

[englishladyfromkent]

All very interesting news, how exciting, and thank you very much for taking the time to share.
Yes, it was the Jacobean rose which made me think 17th C.

I read the hallmark as LF not IF. There is a distinctive sweep of the lower part of the L to the right. But again,
I could not find the maker.

Does anyone know anything about the hallmark? I have never seen it before and it is correct to the period?
No chance of a fake this has been a family "what the heck is it from old uncle Tom" for long before my time.

Is a single mark standard for this period, and would the open book have any bearing on the maker perhaps ? I just dont know.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

I was wondering if the V&A museum may be interested in it for their collections? I do not know a specific museum who
collected aged silver items.

Last question, does the rose on top guarantee it is English do we think ?

Again my sincere thanks to everyone

[AG2012]

1. The rose of this form is Tudor rose (you will easily find the history of York and Lancaster roses,too), but also the rose of German Haus Lippe. Dutch royalty belonged to Lippe House, but I cannot tell much.
2. The same embossing die was used to make both the counters and the lid, the beaded rim of the lid being wider, meaning the maker could not use one of the counters to make the lid. That excludes faked box, I think. ``Let’s make a box and use one of the counters for the lid to have it look genuine``.
In short, it was made by the same hand at the same time; unless somebody recovered the original old die or made a new one (not very likely, but anything is possible these days).
3. I think you should forget museums unless you want to give it for free (they buy important items, as far as I am informed).
4. If you really want to sell it, you will find the way to do it.
5. With only IF or LF we’ll never know the maker unless a similar or identical item emerges bearing more marks.

All I said and speculated is my personal opinion based on common sense regarding ``how it`s made``.

[trevorg]

Hi,

Here are some images of my box by the same maker.

Trevor

[englishladyfromkent]

Hello Trevor

What a delightful little box. I wonder what it would be used for, do you think it is also a counter box but without the counters? The top is very pretty indeed
and yes, I see the resemblance. Thank you for posting and for all the other comments, most appreciated.

Sincerely

PS Should I try to put the hallmark of the book on the base of my counter container on a page of marks as yet unidentified ? Or perhaps a moderator could move
it to the correct spot. Thank you.

[trevorg]

Hello English Lady from Kent,
The box is either a patch box or counter box, the jury is still out on which it is.
Regards,
Trevor

P.s here another box I have that is slightly larger, and so probably a patch box, and also earlier ~1660 but again with a Tudor Rose.