Tongs - Mary & Elizabeth Sumner

[SilverSurfer]

This makers' mark appears at first blush to be that of Mary and Elizabeth Sumner of London (accompanied on this piece by an "R" date letter for 1812-13, plus Lion Passant and King Geo. duty mark, no town mark), but the so-specified makers' mark in Jackson's has a rather rounded cartouche, whereas this one is fairly squared cornered:



Might anyone be able to confidently confirm or deny this particular mark as that by Mary and Elizabeth Sumner? TIA!

SS

[georgiansilver]

With respect, your mark looks like MS KS not ES but I have no memory of the mark so can't really help. Someone will know. Best wishes, Mike.

[SilverSurfer]

I agree that the bottom set looks more like "KS" than "ES", but with rubbing and knocks, it's tough to say one way or the other with any degree of certainty. Consider that "K" is very rarely used as the first initial of a silversmith given name for this period of Brit silverware. A quick search yields only Kean, Kenneth and Kathleen. So what is the likelyhood that this mark is by an obscure pair of silversmiths MS and KS, as opposed to it being an obscure mark of Mary and Elizabeth Sumner? If you were forced to bet your life one way or the other, which would it be? Not trying to be confrontational, just weighing probabilities. It is what it is, and we will either figure it out, or we won't. Such is life.

SS ;o)

[SilverSurfer]

I've been leisurely going over old posts and checking the unresolved marks against this fine site identifying actual photos of makers' marks:

http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/

Within this site I found a second mark for Mary and Elizabeth Sumner:

(removed, hotlinking is a copyright violation)

This appears to me to be a rather good fit to my mark:



SS

[dognose]

Hi SS,

Mary and Eliza Sumner, the widow and daughter of William Sumner entered two marks, the first in a circular punch on the 31-8-1809 and the second in a square punch on 21-8-1810. If your tongs are dated after this and the fact that they were spoonmakers, would lead me to think you are correct.

Trev.

[2209patrick]

[SilverSurfer]

Yes, the tongs are marked for date code 1812-13, apparently at the end of the Mary and Elizabeth partnership. Sorry for the verboten hot link to the specific mark, wasn't aware this was a no-no. Would it be acceptable to provide the text link to the full page for anyone who wanted to search, given that it is a public board? Also, Patrick, can you indicate the text from which you posted the MS/ES marks? TIA.

SS

[SilverSurfer]

Oops, sorry, it was Patrick that posted the MS/ES drawings. Why do I notice these things five seconds after I click "Submit"? :o/

SS

[2209patrick]

Hello SilverSurfer.

That scan of Mary and Elizabeth Sumner's marks came from John P. Fallon's "The Marks of the London Goldsmiths and Silversmiths, Georgian Period (c 1697-1837)".

Small book, but packed with information. Very user freindly.

Pat.

[dognose]

Hi SS,

My source was Arthur G. Grimwade's "London Goldsmiths, 1697-1837, Their Marks & Lives"

Regards Trev.

[SilverSurfer]

Thanks, Patrick, I just ordered a copy of Fallon. Thanks also, Trev, but a Grimwade is currently out of my pin money budget. Maybe next Xmas?

SS

[lindacas]

Hello - I'm stumbling into this conversation five years late! I was researching Mary Sumner today, as her makers mark appears on my set of kiddush cups.

I hope that someone can clarify this for me:

Using this site, I was able to determine that the cups are sterling, made in London in 1901. The makers mark looks exactly like the Mary Sumner mark. However, according to the research I'm doing, it appears that Mary Sumner only produced silver between 1807 and 1808. I guess that I'm misinterpreting those dates. Did sterling items continue to be produced under that mark after 1808?

Thanks in advance for your help!

[user701]

You would be better to start a new thread and show photos of the mark and item to help date and confirm who the maker is.