Help appreciated with Dublin George II mark

[excalibur1661]

Hello,

I would be very grateful for the board members comments on the maker of what I believe to be a 1752 Dublin waiter measuring 7.75" in diameter.

Thank you.

Fred

http://imageshack.us/f/24/h0043l426522691.jpg/

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[dognose]

Hi Fred,

I guess that was a typo for 1750 or 1776?

In 1968, Kurt Ticher, Ida Delamer and William O'Sullivan wrote a booklet for the National Museum of Ireland, 'Hallmarks on Dublin Silver 1730-1772'. It was a work that details the finer points of the Hibernia and Crowned Harp marks. I've just spent some time going though it, and to my eyes, neither of those marks match up to as they should be for 1750.

That leaves the possibility of 1776. The 'D' date letter, according to Jackson, has been noted with and without the pellet at the base of the letter. Jackson's contains photographic images of the marks for that year, and again, the finer points do not match up, however, they do only show one set and there is the possibility, as in earlier years, that other variations may have been used.

The maker's mark, if indeed that is what it is supposed to represent, is unknown to me. You could try sending an image to the Dublin Assay Office for their opinion.

Hopefully other members of the forum will add their thoughts.

Trev.

[excalibur1661]

Thanks Trev for your informative comment.

The year mark should have indeed been rendered as 1750, and not 1752.

Best regards,

Fred

[dognose]

Hi Fred,

Should you go down the Dublin Assay Office route, here are their details:

Assay Office,
Dublin Castle,
Dublin 2,
Ireland
Tel: +353 14 75 12 86
Fax: +353 14 78 38 38
E-mail: rlebas@assay.ie

Please be sure to keep us posted regarding the outcome.

Trev.

[excalibur1661]

Thanks Trev.

I will definitely contact them to see if they know about the mark and will keep the board posted.

Best wishes,

Fred

[excalibur1661]

Hi Trev,

Upon contacting the Dublin assay office, I was informed that the year mark is that of 1750.

There is what appears to be a 'CT' mark about two inches away from the other marks which I presume is that of the maker's )please see below). From the on-line sites, I could only find Charles Townsend and Carden Terry with the same initials, however, neither their punch form nor years active correspond to the mark here, in my opinion. Could there be another maker with CT mark working around 1750? And, could the fact that the 'CT' mark is located 2" away from the other marks be indicative that it was a provincial piece assayed in Dublin.

Thank you and other board members as always.

Best regards,

Fred

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[scorpio]

Hi Fred,
This is a real puzzler. I agree, the D date mark is 1750 but I can't trace a maker's mark as shown either. The CT in the image you posted does not correspond to any of Carden Terry's marks (1784-1821), nor to those of Charles Townsend (1770-1785) or Christopher Thompson (1713-1725) and the date of the piece conflicts with these three makers anyway. I am not aware of any other Dublin or provincial makers with the initials CT.

The flower petals symbol seems like a throwback to the previous century or early 18th and it may represent the silversmith's mark but if it does I have no idea who it may be as I cannot trace anything for it.

A Statute of 1363 ordained that every master goldsmith (or silversmith) should have his own mark. This mark would betray any spoon maker producing articles made from sub-standard metal. Initially, due to poor levels of literacy, each smith was identified by a symbol, e.g. flower petals, bellows and crowns.

The initials of the silversmith began to replace symbols in the 17th century, although the practice of including a symbol amongst the letters continued well into the next century. The statute of 1697 which raised the standard of plate silver to Britannia quality also changed makers' marks to the first two letters of his surname. The restoration of Sterling standard in 1719 re-introduced the silversmiths initials as a form of marking.

I suggest you take the salver into Weldon, 55 Clarendon Street, Dublin 2, who are experts in antique Irish silver and ask there.

Gordon

[excalibur1661]

Thank you Gordon for your very informative comments particularly with respect to the symbol of flower petals, or perhaps a butterfly. I even entertained the idea that it was somehow related to the Huguenot silversmiths working in Ireland, and did some internet research on the issue to no avail.

I will ask for Waldon's thoughts and will keep the board posted.

Best regards,

Fred

[scorpio]

To locate Weldons, walk along Grafton Grafton Street until you see the Brown Thomas store (the former Switzers building), turn onto Wicklow Street and go along the side of Brown Thomas. Clarendon Street is the small street at the back of Brown Thomas and you'll see Weldons close to the corner of Clarendon Street and Wicklow Street.

Definitely looks like a flower to me rather than a butterfly. You can see the pistil in the centre surrounded by five petals and a little stalk with two leaves on it to the right.

If you find out anything more about this very nice salver, do please let Trev and I know what you discover. Good luck.

Regards,

Gordon

[excalibur1661]

Hi Gordon and Trev,

I just received an email from the Assay office of Ireland saying that they held a meeting and concluded that the year mark is 1776 and the maker is Charles Townsend. As Trev had previously mentioned the year mark for 1776 did at times appear without a pellet.

Thank you all for your comments.

Best wishes,

Fred

[scorpio]

Thanks for the update Fred. Far be it for me to disagree with the Dublin Assay Office but I will anyway. To me, the date mark looks like 1750, not 1776 but I guess they should know. However, the CT on your salver is not the maker's mark associated with Charles Townsend, so I would dearly love to know why they are attributing this piece to him.

Kind Regards,

Gordon

[excalibur1661]

Hi Gordon,

Not withstanding my quite limited knowledge on marks, I see the point your way as the marks on the salver and that of Charles Townsend's are quite different.

Further, the salver is quite 1750s style wise-- quite like William Peaston's salvers. Not to mention, that almost all salvers by Charles Townsend that I have seen are decorated with quite elaborate and fancy coat of arms or crests. Whereas, the crest on this salver is quite simple. I have added some pictures below.

Finally, in my humble opinion, the tell tale trigger in identifying the maker is the flower symbol which is not seen on Charles Townsend's salvers.

http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/5 ... 53hmg.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/83 ... 051yg.jpg/

Best regards,

Fred

[scorpio]

Hi Fred, yes, it does look like 1750-1760s style and I'm a bit disappointed with the Dublin Assay Office staff attributing it to Charles Townsend, seems a bit of a cop out on their part when they must know it's not Charles Townsend's maker's mark. However, I'm just a collector, not an expert and you may not get a definite answer on this really nice salver until an Irish silver expert examines it.

I'm not sure where you live, Ireland or elsewhere. If in Ireland, show it to Weldon Jewellers or Danker Antiques in Dublin. L & W Duvallier in Dublin are also Irish silver experts but are online dealers only. If a really unusual piece, maybe you'll get a good offer! Some big London dealers I'm sure could help too. If you live elsewhere, I really don't know.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Kind regards,

Gordon