Help needed with an old silver cup

[dinio]

Hi,
I bought a silver cup which seems to be rather old and which has what looks like german words engraved on the collar. It is 28,5 cm tall and weighs 400 gr.

Four hallmarks that I do not know can be found on both parts of this cup (the body and the cover).

Here are pictures of the cup and of the marks:



The words engraved on the collar in two lines are the following :
Als man zalt Anno 1624. Jar. H. davd Voydel. Onser Zonet. Her War Her. zurst. Aifolt
Und Hans Engel Zonst Meister Lis. ein erbar. Klein Gebot den Becher Machen ders

Can someone translate these words in english ? Which origin can we identify from the marks ? Is it german or not ?
Finally any idea about the possible significance of this cup ? Could it be a masterpiece from an apprentice ?

Thanks in advance,
Dinio
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[Bahner]

Hello and congrats, that was a bargain ! The language seems to be Low German, the piece seems to be genuinely old and from the lower Rhine region. The marks don't ring a bell, though. Could You post clearer pics of the marks? Might be that this is a "Zunftpokal", donated when someone became a member of a guild. I'll try and find out what the inscription says. Those oldfashioned abbreviations can be tricky.... Best wishes, Bahner
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[Bahner]

Hello, there is one mark which can be identified: the square with "3 A d R" is the mark of Amsterdam goldsmith A.J.H. de Ruiter, active 1874 - 1900. My guess: he was the importer of this piece. Can't say I know much about Dutch import marks of the late 19th century, but there should be such a mark somewhere on the piece. Maybe it is this strange "bombé"-form (the rectangle with a tip ?). Looks a little like an Amsterdam mark. Hopefully somewhere out there someone knows more. That would narrow down the real maker's marks. If they are real... Best wishes, Bahner
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[Bahner]

Hello, there are some passages that I can transcribe:

1) „Als man zalt (= zählte) Anno 1624 - in the year 1624

2) „Und Hans Engel Zonft (= Zunft-)Meister (war)“ - and Hans Engel was master of the guild

3) „den Becher Machen ders (= derselbe)“ - said person had this cup made


The engraved tools seem to point rather at a guild of carpenters, not metalsmiths. The name or names mentioned are not those of the maker /makers, but of the donor /donors. There are some passages where a pic is missing. Please add these pics, too. Best wishes, Bahner
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[dinio]

Hi,
This cup is so intricated that I spent a lot of time trying to find all the marks. Finally I think I am done and I found 12 of them, 6 on the body and 6 on the cover.
It seems that there are 2 different sets of marks on both parts:
- the 19C marks :
- one maker's mark ('3 A d R' for A.J.H. de Ruiter)
- 2 dolphin marks used as taxes mark from 1814 till 1909 (the mark on the finial is the small version of this dolphin)

- the older marks which could be a town mark, a date letter and a maker's mark

Both sets are illustrated in the following pictures:






As there is a lot of details, especially the sentences and the names engraved on this cup, I cannot put all the images on the forum. I will setup a web site to give all the material .

Going back to the problem of origin, I am a bit puzzled by the lack of dutch import marks, and the fact that there is only taxes marks. If it had been imported from Germany, it should bear import marks. Does it mean that that the cup had been locally made ? Or does it comme from a german speaking area in the Netherlands? Or what else ?

Still a lot of things to discover about this cup!

Dinio
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[Doos]

Hi,

It's a copy of a renaissance cup, sorry. AJH de Ruiter made alot of these items in his workshop (source: "Valse Zilvermerken in Nederland" - K.A.Citroen)

All marks except the makers mark and the dolphins (1859-1893) are pseudomarks.
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