info on date or maker?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:20 pm

Can anyone help with date or maker of this lode rein?
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I have checked the forum and know that it is 18th century but hard to figure out exact year or maker.

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3696
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby oel » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi,

Your “Lodereindoosje” derived from de French word; l'eau de reine, and in English called vinaigrette

The city mark of Amsterdam is based upon three Andreas crosses in a Crowned shield.

Looking at your lodereindoosje with the three Andreas crosses uncrowned. This dual mark with the date letter L looks fresh and I do not see any prove the Andreas crosses original could have been crowned or that the crown has been rubbed, no traces of the crown at all. The double vertical lines at both sides of three Andreas crosses suggest the date letter L to be for 1770 but something is wrong...,perhaps a bad punch. The maker’s mark looks rubbed and unclear but the 2nd letter could be the V.
In short we have a red herring and I have to consult some other books, next week I probably could tell you some more about the makers ‘mark and city mark.


Oel.

needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:12 pm

Please look whenever you have time. Any info would be great.

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3696
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby oel » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:48 pm

Hi,

Based upon my opinion; your lodereindoosje, I am afraid, has been marked with an imitation /fake 18th century Amsterdam city mark; the city mark appears too recent without any wear and tear, the Andreas crosses are a little too ‘fat’ and too much space between the base of the date letter L and the bottom of the shield and last but not least the crown above the shield is missing and without a trace.
I believe the bogus Amsterdam city mark could be a later addition and originally the box could have been stamped makers’ mark only, made perhaps late 18th or early 19th century.
Please check the box for other marks.

For comparison your image
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With authentic dual Amsterdam city with date letter
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Oel.

needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:36 pm

I am cleaning item further to determine any other marks. Here is a comparison in size to an 1887 box. Also original box found with this thimble.
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oel
co-admin
Posts: 3696
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby oel » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:51 am

Hi,

You have a mixed lot. Does the 1887 box have Dutch hallmarks?
For the thimble you should start a new topic in the “Other Country forum” the fineness 800 mark, in a rectangle strongly points to Belgium and made somewhere between 1868 to 1942.

Oel.

needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:50 pm

Thank you for info on thimble I had no idea it was Belgium. Here is the makers mark on 1887 box.
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This one is unusual that the 833 purity lion mark is incorporated into theme on side. Also gold washed interior and chatelaine. Most of the ones I find are almost always stamped with purity mark on bottom.

Admin edit;
Yes, a bit uncommon, although from 1814 till 1953 assayers were instructed to spread the hallmarks over the object being; assay office mark, standard mark and date letter.
Makers’ mark JK. above 1 for; Jacob Kooiman, registered in Schoonhoven from 1860-1893

needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:04 pm

Also on the first one I am looking for additional hallmarks and cleaning out grey snuff from interior. This stuff is like concrete. I noticed a site previously posting Zilver.NL. They are showing 2 boxes with only the crosses and letter mark. May there have been a different set of stamps for items less than 30-gs. Here are the photos.

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oel
co-admin
Posts: 3696
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby oel » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:15 am

The images you are showing from the Zilver.NL site, and after a telephone consult with the proprietor of the shop, I can confirm both city marks of Amsterdam have vague remnants of the crown. Image


I took another look at the hallmark and maker’s mark on your box, and perhaps the makers’ mark could be (worn) A * B for Adrianus Bonebakker 1792-1842.
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the city mark of Amsterdam could be a mis struck for the year 1795, hence the missing crown and the deformed shape of the date letter L.


Oel.

needy
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Re: info on date or maker?

Postby needy » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:06 pm

Thank you for going way beyond what I would expect for help on a forum. I am truly impressed with the knowledge willingly shared.


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