Marks on Vinaigrette?

[carling]

Does anyone recognise the marks on this vinaigrette? At first I thought they were for Thomas Willmore, Birmingham 1801 but now I am not convinced.

There are only the four marks present under the lid. There isn't another set of marks on the inside base (under the grill) as you might expect.
pic

pic

Regards/carling

[georgiansilver]

Interesting item. Thomas Willmore usually has his initials in a box and I can't think of anyone else who used Birmingham assay office who made vinaigrettes........Maybe worth visiting Sothebys or Christies to get it appraised. From the photos it does not look fake but best to find out before selling or committing to a collection. Best wishes, Mike.

[carling]

Many thanks for your reply, Mike. The piece doesn't look or feel like a fake though it is certainly puzzling. I thought the mark at the bottom was the Birmingham anchor so enquired at the BAO and they think that mark is the lion passant! It may end up in my "unresolved enigmas" collection.

Regards/carling

[georgiansilver]

Been thinking about it today and think perhaps it is one of those pieces which had no makers mark...and I have seen a few....suggesting that the so called makers mark, which could be die stamped by letter, could have been put on later in an attempt to make the piece more 'saleable' with TW on it.....just a few thoughts there.........Best wishes, Mike.

[carling]

Thanks for your additional input, Mike. Very interesting.

Cheers, carling

[Emperor Tojo]

Carling,

I have a vinagrette in my collection with a very similar grill though the box is plainer.

It also only has three marks and they are in a different place to yours. they're on the lip of the base over which the lid closes next to the ring. If you're interested for comparison I can happily send pics.

The marks are the monarchs head, the date letter C (so a year older than yours) and the lion passant .

So perhaps the speculation the makers mark is a later addition is correct.

Hope the information helps,

Ian T

[carling]

Thank you for your reply, Ian. I should be delighted to see your pics.

Regards/carling

[admin]

Eric Delieb's book "Silver Boxes" illustrates multiple marks for a number of Birmingham box specialists. Unfortunately, Thomas Willmore is not amongst them. However, in the sections on Samuel Pemberton and Joseph Taylor, incuse initial marks (watch case marks) are illustrated along with the variations of their cartouched, raised letter stamps. I would guess that TW also made watch cases, being a Birmingham smallworker. Is it conceivable that he might have used his watch case punch on a vinaigrette?

Regards, Tom

[Emperor Tojo]

Carling,

Pics below (1cm grid)



The halmarks aren't very clear (my photography again!).

From left to right you can see the monarchs head upside down, the letter c date mark on it's side and the lion passant also upside down. You can also see details of the ring mount which seems to have been attached later and fairly crudely.



Despite the difference in the outer box design, the flower and leaf designs on the grill seem very similar in style.

All the best,

Ian T

[carling]

Thank you, Tom, for your interesting input. I guess all I need to do now is to find a watch case by Thomas Willmore!

Thank you too, Ian, for letting me see your vinaigrette. It does seem quite likely that both were by the same maker.

Regards/carling

[carling]

Yesterday I came across this rather nice vinaigrette in the form of a scallop and since this too has the mystery TW mark I thought it might be a good idea to add it to this thread. There is just one set of marks on the lip of the base and they aren't terribly clear but appear to consist of lion passant, TW, date letter "e" and a duty mark.

The thick plottens.....
pic

pic

carling

[admin]

Thought you all might find this interesting. It has some tidbits, buried within it, about the silver trade in Birmingham.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report ... 22964#n172