1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

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SilverDreams
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 am

1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby SilverDreams » Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:09 am

Hi all,

Just picked up these two...I am reasonably certain that they are from London, 1801, the maker I think is John Reily but if you have a differing opinion please let me know!

These dishes are nuts. Well, literally in one sense. The top part (handle? Finial?) of either kid is held on by a wingnut, one of which has a “JA” makers mark, the other does not have this mark and it is slightly larger. One other interesting detail is that the non-JA wing-nutted lid’s top pieces are mobile while the other is stationary.

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The ends of each of these dishes have Ram’s heads with circles through them (like one of those lion door knockers) and each dish has two different styles of feet, with east and west matching on either dish.

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The hallmarks on the body and lids differ slightly: on the lid there are a makers mark, duty stamp, lion, date letter, and on the body (outside) there are lion, london crowned cat, date letter, and duty stamp. I had been concerned that these may be pseudo marks but these appear to be sterling and legit markings, if you have a difference of opinion please do not hesitate to share it.

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I am also reasonably certain that these are from someone or somewhere related to the Legh’s of Norbury Booths Hall (now an office park) in Cheshire, England. (If you google “Legh family crest” and go to images you will see this sword/arm combo. If you’re really a sleuth find the brown one that says “bookplate” and it is an excellent match, with the bow-tie shaped hilt and the tongue-sticking-our snake. Obviously I am not a heraldry expert, haha)

My main question, I am really wondering what these dishes might have been used for (they were sold to me as butter dishes but I was like, yo, that is a lot of butter, haha)

If anyone has any insight whatsoever I would be so utterly delighted to hear it. I am in love with these dishes because they seem to be so steeped in provenance and history. I hope I can uncover more of their secrets with your collective expertise. :)

Thanks so much!!!

PS the full album of photos is here: https://imgur.com/a/6Ny1xGT I only posted 12, there are 16 total. LMK if you want more photos/loupe shots etc.

juantotree
contributor
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:17 pm

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby juantotree » Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:34 am

Hi

You have not given the measurements, but due to the notches in the lids (to accomodate a spoon) I would imagine these are either sauce or soup tureens.

Martin

SilverDreams
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 am

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby SilverDreams » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:17 am

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the reply. They are only about 6" x 4" x 3", with the 3" being from the bottom of the feet to the lip of the actual vessel (so not including the lid). The spoon slot is REALLY tiny, about a half a cm across. Most of the soup tureens I have seen are gigantic, like 15" across, but sauce is an interesting proposition. I already have boats and open vessels for that sort of thing, but nothing lidded. Maybe the dimensions can help with definitive determination. Thank you for your contribution, I really appreciate it! :)

SilverDreams
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 am

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby SilverDreams » Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:33 am

Martin you hit the nail on the head! Georgian Sauce Tureen is the google ticket. Here is a similar pair:

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Not too shabby. Thanks a million!

juantotree
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Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:17 pm

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby juantotree » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:34 am

Regarding the hallmarks, the wing nut marked JA is probably a replacement for a lost or damaged original (possible Joseph Angel). The partial marks on the lids are typical for this type of item were you have the full marks appearing on the main part of the piece. As for the maker, I think there is a pellet between the initials, so the maker could be John Robins.

Martin

SilverDreams
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:03 am

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby SilverDreams » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:51 am

Hi again,

Sorry for the delay in responding...I have two year old twins and just things get hectic around here, haha

I agree fully with your assessment of John Robins, especially after googling his work. I found a couple of things that were VERY similar to these in form, and even one pair with the same Ram's head. So thank you so much for that.

I had initially discarded that maker as a possibility, because the mark listed for that silversmith showed the letters in a negative relief, rather than these which were positive. Please see https://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon7.html#M to see what I am talking about. Is that common, to have a variation like that?

Thanks again, this forum is always so helpful. And now I have some cool new dishes to show off this holiday season (yes I use my stuff sometimes haha) :)

Sasropakis
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Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:01 pm
Location: Finland

Re: 1801 London, twin dishes with spoon holes, exceptionally well made. What are they??

Postby Sasropakis » Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:53 am

I don't think the featured hallmark is a negative relief but it just looks like one due to the photo.


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