Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

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RVsaid
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Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby RVsaid » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:31 pm

Hello

I was unable to match the date letter code up with a specific year nor find the same WW makers mark.

Thanks for any help in advance.

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buckler
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby buckler » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:00 pm

The Lion Passant looks very odd to me. Pseudo mark ?

dognose
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby dognose » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:24 am

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

The answer may lie here: https://www.925-1000.com/a_OB_Weston1821.html

Trev.

RVsaid
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby RVsaid » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:52 am

Thanks Trev

That's an interesting article, was the photograph of one of the noted William Weston spoons? 3 out of the 4 marks match up perfectly though the W.W is slightly different and they said he could have used his own original stamp for that part so it should be the strongest of all the four marks.

I'd think it would be pretty exciting to have one of those spoons

Thanks again

dognose
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby dognose » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:09 am

The spoon, if it is one of Weston's forgeries, and I think it very likely is, is a great find.

I'm always amazed at the risks forgers took at the time, the penalties being so severe. Even though the marks are likely counterfeit, the spoon itself is probably silver and the risk taken was just to save on hallmarking fees and the duty, for that, transportation for seven years was the likely outcome if found out.

I'm not aware, or maybe just forgotten, of the origins of the photo. It's possible that Weston may have used more than one maker's mark punch when knocking these out.

As always, it would be good to hear the thoughts of others.

Trev.

Aguest
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby Aguest » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 pm

I believe he was framed just like he says in his defense. It wouldn't make any sense for him to do this, especially as he is in the decline of his career and he had never done this before. Sounds like a competitor framed him, or perhaps someone else who stood to gain by ruining this man's reputation and causing him to vacate his silversmith shop. Perhaps someone wanted to force him out of his shop for some reason?

I truly believe he was innocent.

Traintime
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby Traintime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:34 am

Dropping in the date chart: https://www.925-1000.com/dlc_london.html

I expect 1819 is close. If someone was allegedly copying real marks (as opposed to making fakes), then there could be minor detail losses in the transfer. So now, how do you explain two different versions of the maker mark(W.W & WW) for 1819 (the sample in trial notes) which pre-dates the 1821 case?

Personally, I don't trust the sons. I suspect neither did the jury, so they had to release the father in good conscience.

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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby Traintime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:41 am

I see the possible answer. One of these is Weston's new (1822-) mark and those nasty boys continued to make false impressions with their knock-off soft stamps (which were never found) based on the 1819 impressions.

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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby Traintime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:13 am


RVsaid
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby RVsaid » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:11 am

Thanks everyone.

I am wondering now, if we go with William Weston & or Sons and a Duty avoidance piece where do I stand about owning it. I mean to say are you legally allowed to own it or is there an issue where ownership has to revert to the State?

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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby dognose » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:37 am

Hi RVsaid,

Enjoy your find, it's a great item and of historical interest to those intrigued by the lives of silversmiths.

I doubt there are any legal implications involved with the exception of attempting to sell such an item as an officially hallmarked piece.

Trev.

RVsaid
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby RVsaid » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:46 am

Thnaks Trev for all your help on this.

I had thought it would be alright as long as the initial intent of passing it off as an officially hallmarked piece was not repeated but, thought it wise to ask in case there was an aged law regarding surrending such items up.

I'm not a silver collector myself and probably will not keep it however, I really appreciate learning of it's history and feel the excitment this lends the humble spoon even as a layman.

Thanks again

Traintime
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby Traintime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:50 pm

Maybe the Assay Office would love to put it in a case with a giant question mark.
Seems at this point, someone needs to determine which mark is Weston's true, long-used original one and which is the newly re-entered (as the case states, it must be significantly different) for 1822.
Regardless of that, this appears to be the proof-in-the-pudding that the "crime" of cheating the crown of taxes due was not a one time, limited adventure for this house. How they never got caught again is probably the greater story....black markets?? All goes to the point of why the state felt compelled to have such harsh punishments...even those with a seemingly good reputation might be technically in a "state of rebellion" at a time when royals were none too popular.
And of course..what happened with the seized evidence. Was it turned over to the King's treasury intact? Was it sold as scrap to pay the lost revenues? Broken/Melted? Taken home as souvenirs by the prosecutors? Time for another cable TV show??

buckler
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby buckler » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:54 pm

As I understand it, you cannot SELL any silver with hallmarks which are not genuine, but ownership is not illegal. However technically I think that the Warders of the London Assay Office are entitled to seize it, subject it to assay, and if it fails assay to strike out the marks . I very much doubt if they will enforce this right however, and it would be a tragedy if they did.
Just do not sell, offer to sell, or take it anywhere near Goldsmiths' Hall !

mk209
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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby mk209 » Sun May 31, 2020 12:34 pm

This is just an Exeter spoon by William Welch. After researching and finding other spoons with the same punches it seems like Exeter had 3 lion passant punches in 1820. One square, one wavy bottomed and one like this spoon (more wavy!)

Here’s a William Hope mustard spoon’s mark:

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Matt.

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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby mk209 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:46 am

Here’s another different Exeter lion for 1820....

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Plus the square one I make that three different lions!

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Re: Early 19th Century Georgian Teaspoon Unknown WW mark

Postby mk209 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:05 am

....and more this time a pair of tongs by William Woodman of Bristol.....

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