Charles Kandler II, 18th century

[Juke]

Hi,

I would be very intrested to know all what is known of Charles Kandler II. I know he was a maker of salvers but not much more so all information that is known is more than welcome.

I recently bought a salver made by him in 1782. In the scene can be seen two nobel men in a lake landscape, the rim is decorated with birds, fruits and leaves. The quality is outstanding and it is wholly quilded, all the small details can not be seen in the picture. The salver is 51 cm long and weights 1,2 kg. I am very happy of the bought.





Regards,
Juke

[MCB]

Hello Juke
What a wonderful salver you have!
Apart from the rather brief notes on page 567 of Grimwade's book which recount that Charles Kandler II entered his marks at Goldsmiths' Hall in 1778 as a plate worker from 100 Jermyn Street, London, that he was presumably a son or grandson of Charles Kandler I and that Heal recorded him as a plate worker until 1792 he remains something of a mystery.
There is a copy of a Will listed in the UK National Archives for a Charles Kandler of Vine Street, London which was granted probate in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury on 27th June 1807 (National Archives reference PROB11/1463/308) which may be relevant. A copy can be ordered but there are charges and Contributor Buckler has mentioned on the Forum in the past the possibility that the Will may not be for the person you want to know more about. Of course we would be most interested in anything you can find.
Regards,
Mike

[Juke]

Hi!

Thanks MCB for your input! I am happy to make the small contribution UK National Archives to search for more information, some of you as a native have a better chance to understand the old English so I hope some of you would have the possibility to read the text to find out if the mentioned Charles Kandler II is the same person whos will we have here.

I am personally surprised how short a period Charles Kandler II worked in contrast with the surprise of an extraordinary piece of him. Could he have moved from somewhere else, could abroad be a possibility, of course as by his name he most likely was English born.

Here is the will:






Regards,
Juke

[buckler]

Thanks to Juke for the copy of the testamentary documemts. Much appreciated.

I've asked Juke for a better copy of the document, as the one on the website is rather too low resolution for a proper reading

But as it refers to "Charles Kandler , formerly of Jermyn Street in the parish of Westminster " it is certainly that of the right man.

Watch this space for a full precis .
Eventually

Contributer Buckler
(Thanks Citizen Mike)

[MCB]

Hello Juke
The copies of the probate documents have clearly made at least one Forum Contributor happy! We await his report with interest.
Investigation into his origins by the eminent but sadly late Nicholas Penzer, when researching the great wine cooler made by Charles Kandler I now in The Hermitage in St Petersberg, met with no success and further research may be similarly fated.
As to the origins of the name, when writing about Charles Kandler I on page 567 of his book, Grimwade categorically states it was German and may have a connection with a Meissen porcelain modeller with the same surname.
Although Charles Kandler II didn’t enter his own mark until 1778 the high standard of the salver is probably explained by the fact that the Kandler family were working in Jermyn Street from around 1735 and, although no evidence of formal apprenticeships has come to light, the quality of their work was passed in house from one generation to the next.
Regards,
Mike

[buckler]

This “Will”, like all documents in the National Archives PROB 11 series, is the register entry of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury proceedings for granting of probate or administration of deceased estates.

The documents produced to the Court appears to be an incomplete testamentary document, in Latin , and a translation into English by a Notary Public.
It gives £10 to an executor, £25 to his mother, £25 to his sister and an extra £300 to his sister after the death of his widow. None of these people are named and although supposedly dated 15 December 1797 I suspect it may be a later codicil to a missing original will of that date. It was unsigned and unwitnessed - hence a requirement to verify the handwriting .

On 20 June 1807 at the PCC
Appeared personally Thomas Charles Blandford of Broad Street, Golden Square in the County of Middlesex, Gentleman and Joseph Thomas of Charles Street Grosvenor Square in the same County, Upholder and jointly and severally made oath that they knew and were well acquainted with Charles Kandler formerly of Air Street in the parish of St James Westminster in the County of Middlesex but late of Vine Street in the same County who departed this life in the month of March last , and with his manner and character of handwriting ………
Under oath they confirm that the document, which is repeated, but in the original Latin, was in Kandler's handwriting. Both the addresses are prestigious — there seems a lot of wealth around this case.

On 27 June 1807 the PCC granted the Administration
of the Goods Chattels and Credits of Charles Kandler formerly of Jermym Street in the parish of St James Westminster in the County of Middlesex , afterwards of Air Street Piccadilly in the same parish and County but late of Vine Street Piccadilly Piccadilly in the same parish and County, widower, deceased, was granted to Elizabeth Kandler ,Spinster, the natural and lawful sister and only next of kin....
The PCC noted that no Executor or residuary Legatee had emerged.

Miss Kandler did not live very longer after her inheritance .
Her will was proved at PCC on 17th March 1814 . TNA/ PROB 11/1553/202
It could be that both her and her brother were elderly and that Charles was middle aged when he entered his first mark in 1778


From the fact that Goldsmiths’ Hall have no record of a change of address after his registration as a largeworker in 1778 at 100 Jermyn Street, and Heal giving his occupation there as 1778 to 1793, I think we can conclude that Charles Kandler probably retired , possibly in 1797, and moved first to Air Street , then to Vine Street. All three addresses were, and still are, in a wealthy area. His wife had obviously died after 1797 leaving him a widower.
The intriguing use of Latin for the will is very unusual for this period . Perhaps he was a recent immigrant to England and was unfamiliar with English.

[Juke]

Hi!

Thanks both for MCB and buckler for their efforts in interpreting the document, we got the mystery of the family Kandler solved a little bit more with your great assistance.

It is intresting the mentioning of the possible connection to Germany, so Johann Kändler (Kandler) could be a relative to the Kandler family branch in London. As is known Johann Kändler (June 15, 1706 — May 18, 1775) was the most important modelleur of the Meissen porcelain manufacture. Kändler was appointed court sculptor by Augustus II the Strong in 1731. His works can be seen at the Victoria and Albert Museum, the Birmingham Museum of Art, the Getty Museum, the National Gallery of Art, the Rijksmuseum etc.

Regards,
Juke

[buckler]

We may be able to find more details of the family from the will of Miss Kandler which was proved at PCC on 17th March 1814 . As spinster she will almost certainly have left legacies to her relations, hopefully naming them.
I'm not scheduled to visit the National Archives again until Autumn, but will put it on the list of things for my wife to do ! (She is better at reading names than me )
The mystery of the Kandlers has waited two hundred years, another few months will make no difference !

[agphile]

Some research on the Kandlers was published in the Silver Society Journal number8. My copies don't go back that far, but I mention it in case anybody else has a copy or wishes to order one from the Society if it is still available.