Salver Stirling London

[sal328]

I haven't much experience but i believe this is either 1762 or 1862 and would like to be told the correct date also the makerS initials EC if anybody can identify who it is. My grandmother brought it out to my country in about the 1880s.




.

[dmay]

The marks indicate the piece was made in 1762-3, which is also consistent with the style of the salver. I don't have my books handy, so I cannot help with the maker's mark at the moment, but will look it up if you don't get an answer in the next few days.

The 1862 date can be ruled out for a couple of reasons:

1. the leopard mark, which is the city mark for London, has a crown on it; the city mark contained a crown until 1823, and then the leopard went crownless after that;

2. the lion mark, which indicates sterling, is facing forward. If it had been 1862, the lion would be facing left.


It's a very lovely piece your grandmother brought!
.

[admin]

Maker is Elizabeth Cooke, she registered her mark in 1764, three years after the death of her husband, Thomas. There is another salver by her, made in 1767, in the collection of the National Museum of Women in the Arts in Washington DC. It is illustrated in Women Silversmiths 1685-1845 by P. Glanville and J. Goldsborough on page 47.
.

[sal328]

Thankyou very much for replying so quickly to both of you
.

[sal328]

I had another opinion and they believe the maker is probably Ebenezer Coker can any body tell me if this is correct.
.

[Waylander]

From my references, Coker's mark has a pellet between the E and the C. Your mark does not.

Waylander
.

[georgiansilver]

I may be able to give a definitive answer but am I missing something? I can only see a picture of the salver and not the mark. A picture of the mark would assist.. Best wishes, Mike.
.

[admin]

.

[georgiansilver]

The 1762 date mark is a definite, however, the makers mark would appear to be the second upper case mark of Ebeneezer Coker, who was a prolific salver, candlestick and spoon maker at that time. It would also appear to concur with his particular handiwork. I am not however versed in Elizabeth Cookes work or marks so a minor doubt creeps in. Suggest that you get it appraised at Sothebys silver department (UK) for a definitive answer. It is possible to download a form from their website and send photos for appraisal.
Best wishes, Mike.
.

[Neruda]

If you search the internet with Yahoo or Google etc for +"Ebeneezer Coker" and +salver, you will find four Ebeneezer Coker salvers which are very similar indeed - of 1758, 1762, 1766 and of 1764.

If you search for +"Ebeneezer Coker" and +"silver waiter" you will find another with short legs dated 1770.

Which does make me wonder if the example in the National Museum of Women in the Arts in Washington DC might need to be re-attributed?
.

[admin]

Hi All,
As the salver was made in 1762/63 and Elizabeth Cooke's mark was not registered until 1764, my attribution was certainly flawed and the piece would be by Coker.
Glad to have made the mistake as it does raise an interesting question about the English maker's mark system, and I am hoping that someone here can clarify the particulars.
As the entire reason for the requirement of a maker's mark is grounded in the concept of responsibility, I was under the impression that the Goldsmith's Hall did not allow the use of very similar fonts and cartouche shapes to be used by silversmiths working in the same time period. Hence the use of; pellets, periods, cojoined letters, script fonts & a variety of cartouches to differentiate between marks using the same letters in any given time period.
Following this assumption, Coker (who registered his block letter EC in 1738) would have had to have stopped using it sometime before 1764 in order for Cooke to have registered her block letter EC in January of 1764.
Am I completely off base here?
Regards, Tom

From Grimwade's , which indicates that both Coker and Cooke also used a variation of the mark with a pellet.
.

[georgiansilver]

Tom. Strange to say there are many makers marks which are similar but often with very tiny differences in the shapes of the letters or their flourishes. Seeing both those marks together has sort of stopped me in my tracks as I would have attributed Cookes work to Coker but may have felt strange doing so if the style was hugely different. Elizabeth Cooke used mainly gadrooned edges on her salvers, I am told, so will be looking out for the subtle differences between these two.
Silver, particularly Georgian silver is a fascinating subject and I have met with so many problems to do with marks and styles. Must just keep learning.
Best wishes and thanks, Mike.
.

[outwest]

No expert, but in comparing the actual marks it appears more like Elizabeth's to me, but then , unfortunately, there is the date issue.
.

[dragonflywink]

British silver isn't my area, but as an old graphic artist, the big difference I see is the lack of a lower serif on the Coker mark "C". To my eye, the mark on the salver would be Coker's.

Cheryl ;o)
.

[admin]

There's no question as to the maker, it is clearly Coker. The real question (for me anyway) is how similar were/are maker's marks allowed to appear for contemporaneous silversmiths? Especially considering how worn, or badly stamped to begin with, some marks are.

Tom
.

[Gerryl]

I have read with interest the verbal interchanges regarding the similarity of contemporaneous marks and the difficulty of accurate identification especially when the marks are worn. In an ideal world Tom is correct and there should never be a problem and best of all we would all be experts, unfortunately this is the real imperfect world and we are not! When one peruses Culme, Grimwade, Ridgway & Priestley, Pickford and Crisp Jones it is reminiscent of Champollion deciphering the Rosetta Stone and makes me realise why I was once a banker and now work in social care and I am not the silver expert I would like to be; but I revel in the challenge.

I collect small items of silver, mainly British but recently I acquired a piece from Tiffany made in the USA in the1880’s and a piece by Fabergé made in St Petersburg between 1896 & 1908. Some of the marks, especially on the Fabergé piece were so similar to others of the same period that eventually I contacted Wartski’s in London. They were really kind and helpful and identified all the marks for me. Again, as I said before it made me realise why I work in social care — I deciphered most of the marks correctly but not all.

I live in Yorkshire in the UK and have the luxury of being only 35 miles from the Sheffield Assay office, in fact I am going there on Wednesday; and only 100 miles from the Birmingham Assay office. The staff at both offices are so helpful.

My experience continues to develop and interacting with members in this forum is greatly beneficial. If it was easy what would be the point?

Regards Gerryl.
.