18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Hello, I am a newbie here! I have had this chocolate pot in my family for years. The bottom of the pot has what I have been told is a French Hallmark from Roch Louis Dany, Paris 18th Century. It was thought he was the original crafter of the pot. The hinge has a second British Hallmark, either which looks like JW. At one point I was told it might have been later chased by the silversmith the British Hallmark. Can you help me identify this British Hallmark? I have attached pictures of the Roch Louis Dany hallmark and several of the British hallmark for which I am seeking information on the maker. Thank you so much! Pam
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Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Welcome to the forum.
I can only confirm the first mark as Roch-Louis Dany, Master 1779.
Can't help with the other marks.
Pat.
I can only confirm the first mark as Roch-Louis Dany, Master 1779.
Can't help with the other marks.
Pat.
Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Hello Pam,
The left side mark looks like the uncrowned leopard’s head which the London Assay Office brought into use in 1821-2. The right side mark looks like the letter P in the style used in London in 1870-1. The centre mark is JW in script within what seems to be an oval shape.
Marks similar to the one in the centre were entered at the London office by John James Whiting (see the Forum’s British Hallmark section). There were two John James Whiting, father born around 1795 and son born around 1827. The last mark entered by either of them was in 1857 and as the English Register of Deaths records a John James Whiting dying in 1857 the last mark was probably entered by the son. The Whitings were principally spoon makers however so some doubt is cast on whether the work on the pot is theirs.
There is no standard mark in the form of a lion passant. Such a mark is a fundamental of the assay process.
For whatever reason there is also no Duty Mark showing a side view of the sovereign’s head. This would at least have given some confirmation as to the period in which the work was done.
The letter C could be a journeyman’s tally mark struck so that his work could be identified and paid for.
In summary then it is possible the work was sponsored by John James Whiting Junior and assayed in London in 1870-1 but perhaps other members may hold a different view.
Best wishes
Mike
The left side mark looks like the uncrowned leopard’s head which the London Assay Office brought into use in 1821-2. The right side mark looks like the letter P in the style used in London in 1870-1. The centre mark is JW in script within what seems to be an oval shape.
Marks similar to the one in the centre were entered at the London office by John James Whiting (see the Forum’s British Hallmark section). There were two John James Whiting, father born around 1795 and son born around 1827. The last mark entered by either of them was in 1857 and as the English Register of Deaths records a John James Whiting dying in 1857 the last mark was probably entered by the son. The Whitings were principally spoon makers however so some doubt is cast on whether the work on the pot is theirs.
There is no standard mark in the form of a lion passant. Such a mark is a fundamental of the assay process.
For whatever reason there is also no Duty Mark showing a side view of the sovereign’s head. This would at least have given some confirmation as to the period in which the work was done.
The letter C could be a journeyman’s tally mark struck so that his work could be identified and paid for.
In summary then it is possible the work was sponsored by John James Whiting Junior and assayed in London in 1870-1 but perhaps other members may hold a different view.
Best wishes
Mike
Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Hi,
I agree with Mike about the leopard's head and the journeyman's mark, but I read the date as 1830/1. Don't know if the spout lid is an addition or replacement, but I'm sure it was made from a London watch case or similar item. This would explain the lack of a duty mark, also, the lion passant would have been struck somewhere above the maker's mark, but would have been trimmed off in the lid shaping process. The maker's mark seems incuse as casemaker's tended to be, not sure if it is IW or JW, I&J confound me when in script, but I'd bet someone better versed in English makers could track him down.
Regards, Tom
I agree with Mike about the leopard's head and the journeyman's mark, but I read the date as 1830/1. Don't know if the spout lid is an addition or replacement, but I'm sure it was made from a London watch case or similar item. This would explain the lack of a duty mark, also, the lion passant would have been struck somewhere above the maker's mark, but would have been trimmed off in the lid shaping process. The maker's mark seems incuse as casemaker's tended to be, not sure if it is IW or JW, I&J confound me when in script, but I'd bet someone better versed in English makers could track him down.
Regards, Tom
Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
IMPRESSIVE SLEUTHING!
Fortunately very few casemakers entered incuse marks in script and the only one I can make fit is John Williams who entered a script 'IW' on the 3rd September 1807 from 11, White Cross Street. A better fit would have been John West, of 24, Banner Square, who entered a script 'JW' but not until the 11th October 1833. There is always the possibility that West was using this mark earlier than he had registered it, although technically impossible, human error was not unknown at Goldsmiths' Hall.
Trev.
Fortunately very few casemakers entered incuse marks in script and the only one I can make fit is John Williams who entered a script 'IW' on the 3rd September 1807 from 11, White Cross Street. A better fit would have been John West, of 24, Banner Square, who entered a script 'JW' but not until the 11th October 1833. There is always the possibility that West was using this mark earlier than he had registered it, although technically impossible, human error was not unknown at Goldsmiths' Hall.
Trev.
Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Hi all!
I found the link to the John West hallmark and I think it does look like his mark. Attached is the link:
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-JS-JZ.html.
Please excuse me for being dense but are you saying that you believe he just added the hinge to the pot? At one point I was told by someone they believe the pot was made by Roch Louis Dany and later "chased" by someone else. What is your collective opinion on that? Do you think Dany made the original pot and that West or someone else whose mark is on the hinge later chased it?
Would a watchmaker do the chasing, or do you think it is possibly Dany did the entire thing and someone added the hinge along the line? Any input would be most appreciated
I found the link to the John West hallmark and I think it does look like his mark. Attached is the link:
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-JS-JZ.html.
Please excuse me for being dense but are you saying that you believe he just added the hinge to the pot? At one point I was told by someone they believe the pot was made by Roch Louis Dany and later "chased" by someone else. What is your collective opinion on that? Do you think Dany made the original pot and that West or someone else whose mark is on the hinge later chased it?
Would a watchmaker do the chasing, or do you think it is possibly Dany did the entire thing and someone added the hinge along the line? Any input would be most appreciated
Re: 18th Century Chocolate Pot French and British Hallmarks
Hello All
It’s good to find there are better eyes than mine amongst the Forum Administration! Despite enlarging the image of the date letter until it filled the screen it looked to me like the one for 1870-1 but happy I am to go with 1830-1 and John West’s mark.
Not being an expert on 18th century French silverware I’m unsure whether the pot is in original state of decoration. If it were English however it would certainly be seen as having been used for the Victorian art of flower and scrollwork.
In answer to your questions Pam the fact that a hallmarked bit of a case of John West has been used on the pot doesn’t necessarily mean he was responsible either for the hinged piece or the flowers and scrolls. John West is however recorded on the 1861 Census aged 66 years so he was still available to do the work up to that point in time.
Regards
Mike
It’s good to find there are better eyes than mine amongst the Forum Administration! Despite enlarging the image of the date letter until it filled the screen it looked to me like the one for 1870-1 but happy I am to go with 1830-1 and John West’s mark.
Not being an expert on 18th century French silverware I’m unsure whether the pot is in original state of decoration. If it were English however it would certainly be seen as having been used for the Victorian art of flower and scrollwork.
In answer to your questions Pam the fact that a hallmarked bit of a case of John West has been used on the pot doesn’t necessarily mean he was responsible either for the hinged piece or the flowers and scrolls. John West is however recorded on the 1861 Census aged 66 years so he was still available to do the work up to that point in time.
Regards
Mike
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