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Seeking Maker's Identity For This 1796 London Sterling Spoon
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Charles Overhill
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:07 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
Seeking Maker's Identity For This 1796 London Sterling Spoon
Hallmarks confirm this 8 3/4 inch Georgean berry spoon to have been made in London in 1796. We would like to know the exact maker of this spoon if possible. Polishing over the years has obliterated most of the mark identifying the spoons maker. Can anyone, from the maker's hallmark which remains, help us identify the maker of this spoon? Two enlarged photos of that remaining maker's hallmark are included here, along with a photo of the entire spoon.
http://b.imagehost.org/0062/Georgean_17 ... _Mark2.jpg
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http://b.imagehost.org/0062/Georgean_17 ... _Mark2.jpg
(admin photo edit - image too large - insert as link only - see Posting Requirements)
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Hi,
Welcome to the Forum.
If I were to make a guess I would go for Peter and Ann Bateman, presuming the mark is sideways on, but this is only a guess.
You could help your quest by providing sharper photos, taken from slightly different angles to catch the light better.
When originally made this spoon would have been plain, the decoration is a later Victorian addition.
Trev.
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Welcome to the Forum.
If I were to make a guess I would go for Peter and Ann Bateman, presuming the mark is sideways on, but this is only a guess.
You could help your quest by providing sharper photos, taken from slightly different angles to catch the light better.
When originally made this spoon would have been plain, the decoration is a later Victorian addition.
Trev.
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Charles Overhill
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:07 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
Trev.
Thank you for your reply. Although totally new to this site I have already determined that you are thoroughly informed on the subject of silver items.
I have looked at your suggested Peter & Ann Bateman - 1791. I've also spent considerable time trying to figure this out and would ask if 1. Geo Smith II & Thos Hayter - 1792, or 2. Daniel Smith & Robt Sharp - 1780 could be possibilities.
On photos, I've made many in working on this. Here is another one that is as you suggest, different angle and lighting. The prior photo was included because I thought that it might have "lifted" some latent indication of what more of the maker's hallmark might be. There seemed to be a ghost above the visible portion of the mark in that original photo. Any further suggestions you should choose to make will be most appreciated.
One final question. Is there a metallurgical method of seeing otherwise invisible markings on silver, such as where the hallmark compressed the underlying metal at the time it was struck.
Charles
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Thank you for your reply. Although totally new to this site I have already determined that you are thoroughly informed on the subject of silver items.
I have looked at your suggested Peter & Ann Bateman - 1791. I've also spent considerable time trying to figure this out and would ask if 1. Geo Smith II & Thos Hayter - 1792, or 2. Daniel Smith & Robt Sharp - 1780 could be possibilities.
On photos, I've made many in working on this. Here is another one that is as you suggest, different angle and lighting. The prior photo was included because I thought that it might have "lifted" some latent indication of what more of the maker's hallmark might be. There seemed to be a ghost above the visible portion of the mark in that original photo. Any further suggestions you should choose to make will be most appreciated.
One final question. Is there a metallurgical method of seeing otherwise invisible markings on silver, such as where the hallmark compressed the underlying metal at the time it was struck.
Charles
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Hi Charles,
I believe there is a method of radiography, the police use it where serial numbers have been ground off, but I'm unaquainted with it.
If you are feeling brave you could try this method, see
viewtopic.php?t=10469
At the moment I'm sticking with the Batemans'.
It would be good to know what others think.
Regards Trev.
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I believe there is a method of radiography, the police use it where serial numbers have been ground off, but I'm unaquainted with it.
If you are feeling brave you could try this method, see
viewtopic.php?t=10469
At the moment I'm sticking with the Batemans'.
It would be good to know what others think.
Regards Trev.
.
Hi,
Over the years, I've probably looked at Peter & Ann's mark on 30 or 40 different pieces, mostly spoons. No great number, but enough for me to have noted that clear & legible examples of it seem to be uncommon, while rubbed and badly stamped versions seem to be the norm. I don't know why this is, but would love to hear some ideas.
Regards, Tom
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Over the years, I've probably looked at Peter & Ann's mark on 30 or 40 different pieces, mostly spoons. No great number, but enough for me to have noted that clear & legible examples of it seem to be uncommon, while rubbed and badly stamped versions seem to be the norm. I don't know why this is, but would love to hear some ideas.
Regards, Tom
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Charles Overhill
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:07 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
Trev,
Being new to this I hope that I will not be wearing out my welcome in asking these questions. I have two more.
You mentioned in your prior post that you presumed the maker's mark might be "sideways on". Were maker's marks sometimes struck other than upright and if so how often did that happen?
Also, I have looked at all of the "maker's marks" on this site as follows:
"British Hallmarks - City Marks - London Date Letters=1696-1935 & Marker's Marks". Does that listing contain the marks of all the London makers that existed or are there other maker's marks that I might also look at and if so can you direct me to those sites?
Thank you for your patience.
Charles
P.S. - don't think I have the fortitude for the poker in the fire test
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Being new to this I hope that I will not be wearing out my welcome in asking these questions. I have two more.
You mentioned in your prior post that you presumed the maker's mark might be "sideways on". Were maker's marks sometimes struck other than upright and if so how often did that happen?
Also, I have looked at all of the "maker's marks" on this site as follows:
"British Hallmarks - City Marks - London Date Letters=1696-1935 & Marker's Marks". Does that listing contain the marks of all the London makers that existed or are there other maker's marks that I might also look at and if so can you direct me to those sites?
Thank you for your patience.
Charles
P.S. - don't think I have the fortitude for the poker in the fire test
.
Hi Charles,
We only list examples that; I've photographed, contributors have sent in or members have posted in the forum. Presently, that leaves us many, many thousands of examples shy of being all inclusive. In balance, most of the prolific makers are represented, making the odds fair for finding your mark.
The only alternative site on the subject of British makers' marks that I'd recommend is
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk
Stamping a small mark perfectly square is a skill that takes some practice. Given the number of examples existent with heavy depth to one side or corner, a perfect strike seems a chancy prospect even after practice.
Regards, Tom
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We only list examples that; I've photographed, contributors have sent in or members have posted in the forum. Presently, that leaves us many, many thousands of examples shy of being all inclusive. In balance, most of the prolific makers are represented, making the odds fair for finding your mark.
The only alternative site on the subject of British makers' marks that I'd recommend is
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk
Stamping a small mark perfectly square is a skill that takes some practice. Given the number of examples existent with heavy depth to one side or corner, a perfect strike seems a chancy prospect even after practice.
Regards, Tom
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Hi Charles,
You will never wear out your welcome here, so ask as many questions as you like.
Makers marks are struck pre-assay and will appear in all directions and sometimes overstruck by others and occasionally even under the Hallmarks.
As for makers, for the period that you speak of, I would guess, maybe 10,000, I think Grimwade lists about 4,000 marks for the period 1697-1837 and thats not including those of Bucklemakers, Hiltmakers, Watchcasemakers, Goldworkers and others and those who are in the missing registers, plus of course unregistered marks. And that's only London.
Hunting makers is just one of the many fascinations of old silver, its like prospecting for silver ore, you will never find just one source, you have to dig in many places.
Regards Trev.
.
You will never wear out your welcome here, so ask as many questions as you like.
Makers marks are struck pre-assay and will appear in all directions and sometimes overstruck by others and occasionally even under the Hallmarks.
As for makers, for the period that you speak of, I would guess, maybe 10,000, I think Grimwade lists about 4,000 marks for the period 1697-1837 and thats not including those of Bucklemakers, Hiltmakers, Watchcasemakers, Goldworkers and others and those who are in the missing registers, plus of course unregistered marks. And that's only London.
Hunting makers is just one of the many fascinations of old silver, its like prospecting for silver ore, you will never find just one source, you have to dig in many places.
Regards Trev.
.
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Charles Overhill
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:07 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
Trev,
I bow to your selection of Peter and Ann Bateman as the maker of our spoon and think you are completely correct in this. I've included three small photos with this communication which I think prove your analysis as to the Batemans being the maker.
From the outset of attempting to make this identification, I have focused upon that tapering "tail" at the margin of the remaining hallmark on our spoon, all that time thinking that it must be the point of something like a shield into which was set the internal hallmark. Therefore I had looked at the perimeter of each hallmark for something that would fit that presumption. I now see that was wrong.
Since my last post I found another picture of the Bateman's hallmark and in looking at it, using your analysis that it was "sideways on", I at first could not make it match up as I was assuming that the "B" that remains on our spoon was the lower of the two B's (Ann's) that make up the hallmark. But then it occurred to me that it might in fact be the upper B (Peter's) of the hallmark that now remains on the spoon. And when I looked at it in that manner I got a perfect match to what I can see remaining on our spoon. My tapering "tail" is actually pointing into the top of Ann's "B".
Further, the "ghost" that I mentioned as seeing in the photo (the one that is currently "linked" to my first posting) I now see as being the latent "P" of Peter's first initial, along with what may have been an ampersand in their hallmark. That latent image can be seen as a "ghost" in the photo that is copper in color and appears to me to be almost birdlike. It matches what I see in the Bateman's actual hallmark. The three small attached photos are intended to give a visual reference to what I've just described.
Tom, I thank you for your very helpful comments and am grateful to you both for sharing your expertise with me.
My mother was a prolific collector of old english silver a half century ago and often took me along as a small boy as she toured antique shops looking for the next piece. I remember the very large hallmark book in our home during those years. Over half a century later I'm discovering that this is very heady stuff. It would be fascinating if this spoon could speak of what it has seen these past 200 years.
Charles
.
I bow to your selection of Peter and Ann Bateman as the maker of our spoon and think you are completely correct in this. I've included three small photos with this communication which I think prove your analysis as to the Batemans being the maker.
From the outset of attempting to make this identification, I have focused upon that tapering "tail" at the margin of the remaining hallmark on our spoon, all that time thinking that it must be the point of something like a shield into which was set the internal hallmark. Therefore I had looked at the perimeter of each hallmark for something that would fit that presumption. I now see that was wrong.
Since my last post I found another picture of the Bateman's hallmark and in looking at it, using your analysis that it was "sideways on", I at first could not make it match up as I was assuming that the "B" that remains on our spoon was the lower of the two B's (Ann's) that make up the hallmark. But then it occurred to me that it might in fact be the upper B (Peter's) of the hallmark that now remains on the spoon. And when I looked at it in that manner I got a perfect match to what I can see remaining on our spoon. My tapering "tail" is actually pointing into the top of Ann's "B".
Further, the "ghost" that I mentioned as seeing in the photo (the one that is currently "linked" to my first posting) I now see as being the latent "P" of Peter's first initial, along with what may have been an ampersand in their hallmark. That latent image can be seen as a "ghost" in the photo that is copper in color and appears to me to be almost birdlike. It matches what I see in the Bateman's actual hallmark. The three small attached photos are intended to give a visual reference to what I've just described.
Tom, I thank you for your very helpful comments and am grateful to you both for sharing your expertise with me.
My mother was a prolific collector of old english silver a half century ago and often took me along as a small boy as she toured antique shops looking for the next piece. I remember the very large hallmark book in our home during those years. Over half a century later I'm discovering that this is very heady stuff. It would be fascinating if this spoon could speak of what it has seen these past 200 years.
Charles
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