17th C. Caudle Cup

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
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17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:43 pm

Attempting to pic:

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:44 pm

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:45 pm

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:48 pm

Image

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:23 pm

I tried to enlarge that pic repeatedly but to no avail ::: It would help to see that pic enlarged, there seem to be 3 or 4 struck marks all in a row. ::

I've focused on London, which is where I have seen this form circa 1675, but I can't make any progress, the fragments of hallmarks don't match up to anything I can find from London circa 1675 :

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:57 pm

Edward Hulse is the closest I can figure for the fragmentary makers mark with a crown above. :: He is a noted spoon maker, not a candle cup or porringer maker, but I did find a spoon which might be a tentative attribution ::::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:20 am

If it isn't London, is there a remote possibility that it could be East Anglican? Norfolk Assay Office Hallmarks?

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:33 am

Norwich Assay Office, apologies to the error, I'm doing the best I can here. :::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:08 am

William Fleming is seriously the maker, I really believe I figured it out, but this form seems to be very early for his work (pre-1697 It seems to be). ::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:03 am

What I mean is, all the caudle cups and Porringers made by William Fleming are in the "Queen Anne" style, while this example is in the "James II" style when wild leaves rustling shrubbery were themes of the caudle cups and porringers, this period lasted 1680-1690, approximately, this would be the time when William Fleming was learning his trade and apprenticing, so if this tests positive for Britannia Standard Silver, which would make it made in 1697 at the earliest possible year, it just seems to me that this particular style is no longer in style, all the other examples of William Fleming caudle cups and porringers are in the "Queen Anne" style and they do not use elements of nature like wild leaves and rustling shrubbery ::::::::::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:16 am

We might be solving a mystery here:

"Heal records him as plateworker, Blackwell Lane Court, Cripplegate without, 1692-7 (the first date is curious as by then he could have only served four years of his apprenticeship); also in Gutter Lane, 1712; and Maiden Lane 1714 and 1727. His mark is frequently found on well executed small pieces of hollowware such as cream-jugs, saucepans, dredgers and miniature porringers."

So William Fleming might have been working as a "plate worker" as early as 1692, and if this form tests as sterling silver, we should be in the pre-1697 era in the years before the Britannia Standard was codified by law?

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:44 am

I believe I see the two hallmarks for Britannia Standard, so perhaps William Fleming just wanted to make an older style using the new standard of Britannia Silver, that's one possible theory, all I know is that I have not ever seen this particular form made by William Fleming, but I am still researching :

(also, I believe the "3:9" might have been inscribed by William Fleming to denote "3 troy ounces and 9 grams" since the cup weighs 99 grams total). :

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby legrandmogol » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:04 am

Hi, thanks for sharing but despite your best effort to show pictures, it just looks like a faded blur on our end. I know with these really worn marks it is possible to see things in person that just don't photograph well. It is definitely an old old awesome cup though.

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:53 am

I know I have the maker, but the last hallmark in the series seems to be one of the notorious "Court Series Letters" and 1699 or 1700 is my best guess.
I have more pics I could e-mail to an expert (if anyone cares to review them), but really the same conclusion would be reached, it is William Fleming and it is very early Britannia silver 1699 or 1700. ::

The thing about the series of "Court Letters from 1697-1715 is that when you find actual examples of the hallmarks (all in various states of wear), there is much more detail in the actual letters as compared to the chart which shows a generalized "theoretical" image of the date letter. ::: So I haven't been having much luck with the fragment of the court letter which I have, I can't link it to a letter on the chart, I have had to go to a picture of the actual court letter in order to try and match it. :: The closest candidate I can find is the year 1700, but I cannot say that with absolute certainty. :::::

I could email pics of the fourth hallmark in the series, the hallmark I believe is a fragment of the "court letter" if anyone has a lot of experience with this series of letters and has seen each and every letter in the series either in person or in pictures (in person is better), basically I would need a court letter series expert in this case :::::::::::::::::

I lament the passing of TinyPi, it was my favorite image hosting service, I am really bad with image hosting. ::::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:14 am

Image

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:01 am

A fragment of the date letter 1710 (London) Is preseumably at the far right. ::: Any good example of 1710 (London) would be greatly appreciated. :::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:47 am

I really don't believe this is a fragment of a date letter anymore. :::

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After further research, I believe it is a fragment of a lion passant stamp from the 1670s-1680s, I realize this doesn't make sense given the attribution of the maker's mark, but is it possible that William Fleming put his mark over another silversmith? Is there another hallmark extremely similar to William Fleming from the 1670's-1680s such that I mis-attributed the maker?

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:54 am

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The part of the crown that is on the far right is what I am comparing my fragment to. There is a little part at the far right of the crown that "juts upward" in the same way as my fragment "juts upward" ::

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Re: 17th C. Caudle Cup

Postby Aguest » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:26 am

If the same lion passant was used until March 27, 1697, then this cup could have been made by William Fleming, that's the more likely possibility, an XRF test could confirm sterling silver and it's just a very early piece from when he became free (1695) until March 27th 1697.

Another record does list him as working as early as 1692, but without the date letter here we may never know so the mystery continues.


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