help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

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gsmoggy
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby gsmoggy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:39 am

Hi Members
Can anyone help with makers mark on this small silver box with a enamel plaque on lid ?
The marks are a little rubbed ,I can make out the lion and the letter i ,cannot make out the town mark ,may be Exeter ,The makers mark is in an unusual shape ,looks like maybe ,AK or AN .I am sorry the images of the marks are not super clear.
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Many thanks Guido.

silvermakersmarks
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Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby silvermakersmarks » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 am

It looks to me like a Birmingham hallmark from the lower case letter cycle 1900-1924, either i for 1908 or possibly t for 1918. The maker's mark is almost certainly the triangular flag mark of Walker & Hall (W&H).

Phil

gsmoggy
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Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby gsmoggy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:03 pm

Hi Phil
Thanks very much great work,it looks like you may be correct,If it is Walker and Hall a lot of the flag (the stem and W are not there)I have had a closer look at the town mark ,it looks to me it maybe the top of the Sheffield Crown ,I can see a peak shape with a inward hook going in towards the peak. Could this be right? And then the i for 1908 Birmingham does this make sense ?

Does anyone know if Walker and Hall did these boxes with enamel plaques?

Kind Regards Guido .

silvermakersmarks
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Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby silvermakersmarks » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:36 am

The shape of the punch means that it's definitely Birmingham and therefore it must be the top of the anchor which is visible. Had it been Sheffield the bottom of the lion passant and date letter would have either been flat (before 1918) or angled like a flat "V".

Phil

AG2012
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Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby AG2012 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:39 am

Hi,
They made boxes with enamel of this shape.
The problem here is the way the enamelled plaque was fitted (red arrow).
The circular fitting should be firm and flawless, smooth and perfect.
If the enamel was broken and replaced with another plaque you will be able to disclose it by careful inspection under magnification (dents, irregularities etc).

Regards

Image

gsmoggy
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby gsmoggy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:23 am

Hi AG and Phil
Many thanks for the info great help. I have loaded some images of the plaque,I can see the flaw that you have mentioned ,I have had a closer look all around the plaque ,there are no other imperfections or chips,I feel it is the original plaque and the flaw was there from the manufacture process . (where the enamel has not flowed properly) as you will notice that on one image you cannot see the flaw ,even though the flaw is there it is hard to see with the naked eye.

Regards Guido.
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AG2012
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Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby AG2012 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:10 am

See here how cabochon stone is set into the bezel.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

The same technique is used to set enamel plaque.
I mean, there should be no gap whatsoever between the plaque and the bezel.
No glue is used, and not necessary, either:inverted bezel rim,pushed inwards fixes the plaque.
Regards

gsmoggy
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Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby gsmoggy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:03 am

Hi Ag
I do not get your point ,are you assuming my plaque is glued in and not the original plaque put in the right way by the maker?
I would be interested to see other similar enamel plaques on boxes by this maker of this period to see if my plaque is in the right character and style ? I do not class Walker and Hall a super high quality maker ,although I am happy with the box .Until I am give some facts about what other original plaques on this style of box looks like ,I will assume mine is original, (I could not see the link on setting the plaque) It seems you are assuming my plaque is not attached correctly. I do not agree.

Regards Guido.

AG2012
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Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby AG2012 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:18 am

Hello again,
My link was to a commercial site and had to be deleted.
Now trying to explain again with this image.
No matter if cabochon stone or enamelled plaque, there is bezel setting (1).
The rim of the bezel is pushed inwards to fix cabochon or plaque (2).
So, there is not even a fraction of millimeter gap between bezel rim and cabochon or plaque.
If your plaque was not set this way, damaged plaque may have been replaced with another plaque.
Regards

Image

gsmoggy
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:24 am

Re: help with makers mark,on box with enamel plaque.

Postby gsmoggy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:49 pm

Hi Ag
Thanks for the explanation on the setting.As I said before I feel my plaque is set correctly ,I cannot see any gaps between the plaque and the silver rim ,where the plaque is slightly smaller than the rim, this is what I would see if the plaque was glued on ,even though the rim may not be pushed perfectly flat on the enamel is does not mean that the outside edge of the plaque is not under the rim as it is supposed to be.

Regards Guido.


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