Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
No idea where to go with this one. Maker may be (IB), (TB), (IR), (TR) or possibly even with "K"! Too rubbed now. Might fit a Colonial/Federal American or Continental Provincial. Can not tell if pricked work is John or Sohn. End tip of handle has a very pronounced swing back and thickness. Expect the drop and decorative works migh lead somewhere, but ?? TIA
Better photos delivered as needed.
Better photos delivered as needed.
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
The double-stamp makers mark has been seen in Provincial Danish spoons & combined with that original 1803 inscription if you trace the name you could be looking somewhere in Scandinavia :::: At first it doesn't make sense because the Old-English bright-cut border design you would think that makes the spoon either provincial English or slightly post-colonial American but the more I look at it it seems like an interpretation of that old-english bright-cut border. ::: I have a similar spoon I thought was Scottish Provincial Montrose but now I think it's Trondheim Norway. ::: Your 3-letter monogram seems to have been added later in the 1860s-1880s based on the font and the precision of the engraving :::
This is only the second serving spoon I have seen that at first seems provincial English but then upon further analysis it seems more like provincial Denmark/Norway. ::: This is a difficult area with few examples most of which have been assigned the "provincial England" designation and then put back into the silverware drawer because it's really difficult to identify them as Scandinavian (Denmark/Norway). :::::
This is only the second serving spoon I have seen that at first seems provincial English but then upon further analysis it seems more like provincial Denmark/Norway. ::: This is a difficult area with few examples most of which have been assigned the "provincial England" designation and then put back into the silverware drawer because it's really difficult to identify them as Scandinavian (Denmark/Norway). :::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Actually, your hunch does make a lot of sense as this is an area with heavy Scan settlement, rural but not backwoods. This linked thread (no photos) provides a partial supporting remark (by HOSE_dk) on Danish Provins Silver practices in dopple markings, though there are no city marks present in this case: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=23410&p=56481&hili ... 1ae#p56481
While there is necessarily some degree of doubt, I'd go with about 95% certainty that the prickings include "Sohn". And, I can't imagine anyone beyond the continent using "Ww." as a name or word abreviation, but perhaps older-Germanic derived?
While there is necessarily some degree of doubt, I'd go with about 95% certainty that the prickings include "Sohn". And, I can't imagine anyone beyond the continent using "Ww." as a name or word abreviation, but perhaps older-Germanic derived?
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Ww. means Witwe = widow.
Regards silverfan
Regards silverfan
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Danke! So now we can take both Ww. and Wwe. to represent "Widow (of)" in German. [Perhaps also useful as there is another community slightly further north, reportedly to have had some concentrated heritage of German immigration.]
-->Thence, convolutedly if not logically, P.DD. may be the widow (of) A.Sohn. (A's son?). This might imply the prickings are after the top graving work if A.C.h. was the father A.Sohn. . If correct, that would suggest the spoon itself is much older than the 1808 date? Would the construction be consistent or contrarian to such conclusion?
-->Thence, convolutedly if not logically, P.DD. may be the widow (of) A.Sohn. (A's son?). This might imply the prickings are after the top graving work if A.C.h. was the father A.Sohn. . If correct, that would suggest the spoon itself is much older than the 1808 date? Would the construction be consistent or contrarian to such conclusion?
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
I was thinking 1785-1795 and I do think 1808 is a little late for the overall shape & design of the spoon. :::: I would keep trying to find the maker (Scandanavia or Germany?) and take really good pictures of the hallmarks so that the letters are very sharp. ::: It could very well have been bought in 1808 and the inscription was added by the widow to commemorate her deceased husband (even though the form seems a little earlier than 1808, it could have just been made in the older style). ::: It seems a little large to be a baptismal spoon, but I guess that is a remote possibility since the inscription does mention the son? ::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
::::: One other question about the construction of the spoon: Does it have a slight mid-rib on the back of the handle where that "1808" begins or is that area flat? Can you see a faint raised line that bisects the back of the handle? I can't see from the pics if that area is smooth or does it have a mid-rib. ::::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Indeed there is a faint trace of a central spine running from the handle tip down to where it begins to narrow and turn inward. Then it just goes flat.
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
There is a similar "spine" on my Trondheim spoon with a similar length as your spoon (between 9 and 10 inches) & a similar shape to the end of the handle & a similar length of 9-10 inches (which seems unusual for an English Provincial/American Serving Spoon). :::: I was just wondering about that "spine" detail. ::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
My Peter Pedersen Mollerup spoon from Viborg had only a single makers mark on it and then I read that thread about the "double-stamped" marks which led me to other examples which had two makers marks and none of the other hallmarks you would associate with Denmark. :::: I don't know why Denmark was not as strict about their hallmarking process as other countries during the 19th century where you could get into serious trouble for improper or absent hallmarks (like the UK and Russia). :::: Copenhagen may have been strict about it because they had an assay office there and a long tradition of silver hallmarking, but in the smaller towns and provinces hallmarks were not strictly enforced (that's what I assume, anyway, perhaps there is a book that further explains the situation in greater detail). ::::
At least for 18th Century Denmark silver spoons there are enough examples to support the case that sometimes you just get one or two makers' marks without additional town/date hallmarks. :::: Not sure why. ::::
At least for 18th Century Denmark silver spoons there are enough examples to support the case that sometimes you just get one or two makers' marks without additional town/date hallmarks. :::: Not sure why. ::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
That should read "19th Century Denmark" sorry about that. ::::: We're interested in the years 1800-1892 ::: 1893 was when the "three-towers" hallmark was introduced ::::
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Mind my saying minor additions/amendments:
The three tower mark (town mark for Copenhagen) was in use only for Copenhagen's assay office already as from 1608, but it became the national mark for Denmark in 1893. Before that year other cities "used" their own town marks.
In Denmark a new hallmarking act from 1888 went to effect in 1893 "standardizing" a new system of marking silver. All makers of silver articles were required to punch marker's mark and fineness mark on the object. Then articles could be sent (voluntary) for assaying to the assaying office in CPH to be marked with the assayer's mark in order to guarantee the legal fineness. This procedure was discontinued in 1988. The last assayer's mark was J. Beyer's mark JB in a rounded square 1974-1988.
There is more to it, but this will do for now.
#Aguest
Denmark has never been particularly strict regarding marking silver. There are today quite a lot of to name unknown makers etc. Christian A. BØJE'S book Danske guld og sølv smedemærker før 1870 (pub. 1946) is far from complete. (only about 3.600 identified Danish makers) Unfortunately I'm not aware of newer updates or other reliable books. Anyway, many (maker's) marks on the object ....good silver! :-))))).....sure thing!)
Moreover, Peder Pedersen Mollerup in Viborg was born around 1815 became master 29.11.1842 and was "still going strong" 1870. He is known to have made (potato) spoons among other things. He is also known to have used three different marks i.e. two different PM marks and PMollerup (all in italics font). All had square shields. He usually punched two maker's mark on his made objects (from BØJE).
The three tower mark (town mark for Copenhagen) was in use only for Copenhagen's assay office already as from 1608, but it became the national mark for Denmark in 1893. Before that year other cities "used" their own town marks.
In Denmark a new hallmarking act from 1888 went to effect in 1893 "standardizing" a new system of marking silver. All makers of silver articles were required to punch marker's mark and fineness mark on the object. Then articles could be sent (voluntary) for assaying to the assaying office in CPH to be marked with the assayer's mark in order to guarantee the legal fineness. This procedure was discontinued in 1988. The last assayer's mark was J. Beyer's mark JB in a rounded square 1974-1988.
There is more to it, but this will do for now.
#Aguest
Denmark has never been particularly strict regarding marking silver. There are today quite a lot of to name unknown makers etc. Christian A. BØJE'S book Danske guld og sølv smedemærker før 1870 (pub. 1946) is far from complete. (only about 3.600 identified Danish makers) Unfortunately I'm not aware of newer updates or other reliable books. Anyway, many (maker's) marks on the object ....good silver! :-))))).....sure thing!)
Moreover, Peder Pedersen Mollerup in Viborg was born around 1815 became master 29.11.1842 and was "still going strong" 1870. He is known to have made (potato) spoons among other things. He is also known to have used three different marks i.e. two different PM marks and PMollerup (all in italics font). All had square shields. He usually punched two maker's mark on his made objects (from BØJE).
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Another sample from 2011 with some images supplemented by description (to be clear, my mark is entirely intaglio, both struck equally, both with same blunted letters): https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... c99#p57394
Notable again is mention of faint spine & prickings..no image of drop.
Notable again is mention of faint spine & prickings..no image of drop.
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
Later era, not exactly like (& actually assayed), and a captain's spoon...but Bahner has added an interesting note on a particular area where Dane and German can come together: https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 333#p82653
Whether this would similarly apply to a spoon nearly half a century earlier would be interesting. Don't want to generalize any conclusions, but there could be a trail closing in on a likely region of shared practices. [Of course, following footsteps in the snow might only lead you into a hidden bear trap.]
Whether this would similarly apply to a spoon nearly half a century earlier would be interesting. Don't want to generalize any conclusions, but there could be a trail closing in on a likely region of shared practices. [Of course, following footsteps in the snow might only lead you into a hidden bear trap.]
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
And more travelling spoons: https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 94#p169986
Re: Spoon: Double Stamp Ovoid/Prickings/Gravings/1808
A fine surviving photo of the same style of double marks in ovoid cartouche, unfortunately with no reply to confirm the very early marking of a 1700's inscribed dating: https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 784#p57963
The name Jacob Koos has come up but the images of marks were lost.
The name Jacob Koos has come up but the images of marks were lost.