Help needed, German (?) tankard.

[Dane111]

Have problem with identification of hallmarks on silver tankard. Probably German, but I'm not sure. Why some many hallmarks? Can anybody help me with identification of maker and dating the item? Many thanks in advance!!! Dane

[Traintime]

Until the German experts weigh in...take a look at Stuttgart horse marks (pre-1886) in World Marks entries. Look like a possible match? The zigzag and 12 should indicate authentic assayance for 12 lot (.750) silver in main object body at least. Someone might know if the other marks relate to the additional metal mounts (handle). So far, I could not find anything to relate the NZ mark to nickle zilver (on the assumption of a handle casting mated to an 1800's body..running horse is later than standing). I won't even try to explore Hanau Psuedos...someone else may take that up later. (This should give our experts a good laugh.)

[Traintime]

BTW..I think the backward R.A mark is double stamped and probably relates to the NZ. The mark above those could be your possible Stuttgart silversmith. The odd flower like symbol appears to be stamped over the (presumed) rectangular 12 mark, which itself is under the oval/round animal stamp.(The zigzag is the assayers scratch for testing.) If this all does not work out, we may have to look beyond German borders.

[Theoderich]

it is not Stuttgart
but I do not know which town or country it is

[legrandmogol]

They look Baltic in origin. I think they are from 18th century Raucke Latvia but I am not expert.

[JanGroen]

Good evening
The pattern seems similar to a unmarked snuff box I have.




Jannie

[JanGroen]

Good day

Just like my box, this object seems to be gold plated/gilded in the past. If one look at the lid one can see that its the low points that are showing a golden metal. The rest of the plating is gone.

Jannie

[JanGroen]

Good day

Just like my box, this object seems to be gold plated/gilded in the past. If one look at the lid one can see that its the low points that are showing a golden metal. The rest of the plating is gone.

Jannie

Link to my post of snuff box: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=49792&p=152464#p152464

[legrandmogol]

The pattern is Roccoco and was very common in 18th century Europe so it would be hard to connect it to an area just based on that alone. Also there was a Rococo revival in the latter 19th century.

[Aguest]

What about that series of numbers and symbols which starts with the number "11" and then it is followed by two symbols which are unlike anything I have ever seen before? That "infinity sign" with two lines through the top and one line through the bottom, what could that mean? Is that some sort of "year, date, month" code? I assume it is, but what country or language could that be from?

[legrandmogol]

The style of the tankard is very Baltic, the 3 ball feet to the domed lid. I have seen that lion mark described as from Russian occupied Latvia and dated from the 18th century. I would try that area but I don't know for sure. Maybe its the items cost? or weight? Not sure, reminds me of a currency symbol.

[Traintime]

Just for a reference, one discussion linking a "lion" mark to Estonia (1920-1940, post Russo era) with another mark for Latvia. Seems to indicate strict Russian markings during earlier occupation era. Link: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=23023&p=55902&hilit=latvia+lion+mark#p55902

Could the engraved marks (added by?) just be liquid measure related as on steins? The "Infinity" thing looks a bit like the type of letter found in the (not related to this item) Meriden Sterling Company triangle mark, a dual crossed "L" whose origins may be an older European design (British pound or other).

Now, the item is assayed...presumably 12 loth/lot. Would anyone other than the assayer place a mark (quadraped animal that has been called a "lion") over the 12?

[Traintime]

Just to add another possible complication, if the "infinity" thing is an "L", then "Lo. 11" could be a reference to the rarely seen loth/lot 11 grading...which would raise the question of why two different assay qualities here. At the least, this is certainly an interesting piece for learning about marking oddities.

[Traintime]

More questions:

Could this be a town (at that time) under the influence of old Prussia? Would the "lion" and "floral" be two parts to the town identity placed with two stamps over a 12 lothig stamp (lacking a single compound stamp)?

Could the three initials be maker, assay master, and assay subordinate to the master? Could ZN then be re-oriented as NZ to match the possible "Lo. 11" on the assumption that they had no stamp for Lothig 11, and this refinement was demanded by the assay master?

And as always, could this be another "Hanau pseudo" deception not yet recorded (which I lightly doubt)?

[Traintime]

No photos, just another mention of a flower mark in combination with 12 loth/lot mark (added only for reference): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48977&p=148593&hilit=town+flower#p148593

[Aguest]

The "Zig-Zag" mark I have only seen and read about being an assay mark used by German assayers, but the backwards letters seem to point towards Cyrillic which would mean a Russian influence, and I have absolutely no idea what the strange infinity sign is, but this is a very interesting piece and really mysterious, but there are so many hallmarks you would think it would be easier to figure out :::

Maybe the strange infinity sign is a unit of liquid measurement and the silver purity will test for 11 Loth, sounds like a better suggestion :::

[Traintime]

Just as a reference thread on the Tremolierstich (a zigzag by any other name) and assaying methods: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=48537&p=146661&hilit=assay+zigzag#p146661

Additionally, there are some searchable threads relating to Russian controlled/influenced areas (1700's-1800's). Riga pops up and one can find some interesting commentary on the heirachical layered complexity of assay offices within the accountability or reporting system. [One late 1800's assayer with intials R.A. does get mentioned...but this is not his shown mark, occuring within the standardized Russian marks system of the 1840's onward.] The Cyrillic possibility is puzzling.
Just thinking about who might desire this item and could afford it, I keep wondering about military officers serving forward areas in Prussia...would a maker in Riga turn his attention southward to a second market? Would he use a Prussian assay and avoid a Russian office? Would a buyer in Prussia accept something not made within their own borders (as a matter of pride) and go with a reasonable close northern source?

[Traintime]

Just to consider the handle, the mermaid seems to be a ship's figurehead design. Not sure we can conclude anything about the ultimate buyer, but would not the maker be more-likely-than-not someone working in a port city or coastal area?

[Aguest]

: I'm still wondering about the Prussian Empire, specifically the regions where the Prussian Empire interacted with Russia, that is where I am investigating :

[Dane111]

Hello Everybody! Thank you very much for your efforts. According to the information I have, it's from Dorpat, now Estonia., earlier East Prussia.