Finnish Maker KPL (?)

[Traintime]

Demi Spoon, .830 grade, dated Q8 for 1993. Unknown maker/town mark. TIA

[dognose]

Hi Traintime,




Kellopörssi Oy - Carmik Oy - Hansa-Silver Oy

I presume the same firm with restyled names.

It would be good if someone better acquainted with Finnish makers could confirm/deny.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Like dognose anticipated it is the same company with restyled names. Probably due to changes in the ownership, don't know. Anyway, the marks are too small and out of focus. I would appreciate better and sharp close-ups. As I see it, it is imported goods. The hallmark, the crown, seems to have an oval frame (import mark 1925-1998). KPL is the mentioned company located in Helsinki. The year mark is O8 or Q8 being 1991 or 1993. The three marks to the right are too unclear to read. However, I believe them to be the exporter's maker's marks, but ...? Show some sharp close-ups and I'll take a new look.
The pattern is called Chippendale, which is very popular in Finland.

[Traintime]

Extremely tiny marks, hope this helps (left facing lion, possibly guardant, next to 830). Two marks are a form of anvil-headed reversed C, the second one preceeded by an A. Date code was definitely Q8.

[Traintime]

Don't want to confuse the examination, but just realized that's the same lion used in old Estonian guarantee marks (still in use?)

[dognose]

Yes, to my knowledge, still in use.

Trev.

[Traintime]

Excellent. Imported by Finnish firm from early source in re-established Republic of Estonia. Assuming they put the old maker's mark system back in play, this opens up a whole new country of modern-era producers yet to be identified.

[Qrt.S]

OK, now I see the mark. Yes, it is Estonia's new control mark as dognose already stated. However the mark dognose shows is a bit strange. It has the old Estonian lion 1924-1940 but the shield has the new shape. The modern Estonian Control mark's lion from 1992 -> is more detailed and en face and looks like this:




@dognose
Mind my asking dognose, but where did you get it?

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

Ha! It's straight from the horse's mouth. It's from the official 'Blue Book' - Guidelines to European Member States Hallmarks - 10th edition, published April 2010.

Trev.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Estonian assay office:
https://www.metrosert.ee/en/s/assay-off ... ness-marks
https://www.metrosert.ee/en/s/assay-office/control-mark

[Qrt.S]

??? I must say I am completely puzzled...I revert to this matter later...I must do some researching.

[oel]

The Estonian lion the old stylized lion or the “happy “lion detailed in ears and face and as seen in the current national symbol.
The 1993 spoon:

The Happy lion, look at his legs and face and surely not:

To make sure I wrote to Hallmark Research Institute Danusia Niklewicz repied back;

Dear Peter,

Thank you for the email and your recommendation regarding the Estonian Lion.

In writing this book and working with the Estonian Assay Office, we reported the information that we learned through their help, additional research, and examples of actual hallmarks encountered.  When the new imagery was generated, we reviewed both the printed materials and actual hallmarks. By doing this it was apparent that the lion, in more recent marks, was more robust and 'happy' than the thin 'stylized' lion of the hallmarks in the past.  The change was recorded and the entire chapter was vetted by the Estonian Assay Office which we trusted to correct us if we were in error.  This may seem contrary to the visuals of the thinner lion they still offer on their website.
If you go to the METROSERT (the Central Office of Metrology which is the equivalent of the National Metrology Institute) website... 
https://www.metrosert.ee/et  
..you will see, on the lower right, the more healthier and happier lion.  It is this lion that is now the trademark for the Eesti Proovikoda (Estonia Testing Chamber/Laboratory) and can be found on their letterhead, as well.

Just in case you still are not convinced here is an actual hallmark example, from a document that they shared with us, that shows this happier lion. Yes, that is a smile and eyes on its face! Note its ears are rounded now too.



Hopefully this helps clear up a bit of your misgivings about our inclusion of the 'happy' lion.  Please do not hesitate to contact us should you find you have more questions.

Kind regards,

Danusia Niklewicz

Danusia Niklewicz, GG,FGA,ISA-CAPP,ASA
Director of Research & Education
HALLMARK RESEARCH INSTITUTE

[dognose]

Great work Peter, thanks for clarifying it.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Nice doing Peter, I have also written to Eesti Proovikoda asking for an explanation. You got the answer first. Rather stupid of the assay office to use an "incorrect" mark. Let's see what they will answer me.

[dnl]

Dear Qrt.S,

It is important to note that while what may appear to be illogical for an assay office to post marks that are not true to the strike, it actually can be quite intentional. Consider the potential risk for good forgeries if every assay office published publicly their exact hallmarks. Most assay offices that do offer their hallmarks publicly online will have a feature or adjustment to the imagery that can be their method to ID attempted forgeries and even provide them with where the likeness used may have originated. Generally, the adjustment will be very subtle so as not to interfere with identifications conducted by those outside of the assay office.

Just a bit of perspective that we became very conscience of especially when we were rendering new imagery for the hallmarks in our books.

Hope this provides you with a better perspective too.

Happy Holidays!

[Qrt.S]

@dnl

Do I understand you correctly or do we have a language problem here? Are you really claiming that an assay office officially informs the public that their control mark looks like "A", but in order to mislead fakers punches "A" on an object? I have dealt with silver quite a lot during my adult life (I am not young) but I have never ever neither read it anywhere (I have a rather huge library) nor heard it from anyone before and neither have my colleagues. If it is as you claim please show some hard evidence. Without that I never buy your statement and I don't think anybody else does it either. This Estonian case is strange indeed!

Of course anybody can publish an indicative picture like this below but it has not much to do with how the official hallmark looks like.




Merry Christmas to everybody



Qrt.S

[dnl]

Hello Again,

Yes, there is some misunderstanding here. No claim is made that every assay office (AO) officially offers the public marks that are incorrect or that every instance of a published hallmark is distorted to mislead would-be forgers. The statement was only meant to offer a perspective as to why the older hallmarks may be still be shown on their website rather than assuming, as you had noted, "Rather stupid of the assay office to use an "incorrect" mark."

Where the misunderstanding may be is in the referencing of age. This perspective of a more security minded approach has never been more of an issue than in the present. Maybe that should have been a qualifier. Unlike centuries of hallmarking before, today there exists more sophisticated techniques that can recreate a better, more convincing forged hallmark. With the increased use of laser inscribing of hallmarks in many assay offices around the globe, the concern increases. Yet this is not a claim that all modern marks have a forged counterpart either. It is just a reality that these AOs are having to deal with in this modern age.

As for the 'evidence' you requested... again, it is with modern hallmarks. When researching for the chapter on the Hallmarking Convention we were explicitly asked by the HMC not to include the linear background to the fineness hallmarks now used by their members for international trade. It was a security measure and we respected their request. We added a photo of an actual common control mark to allow for a visual comparison. Can you still identify the hallmarks without the lined background in the artwork? Yes. This is but one example of the cautions being taken to protect official hallmarks today.

Does that help clarify things any better?

[Qrt.S]

Hello dnl,

This is a very interesting discussion. I be happy to continue with it. Unfortunately it is afternoon and Christmas Eve here. I don't have time for the moment for obvious reasons :-)))))). I will revert to this thread later. Please be patient. That much I'd like, anyway, to comment is that the misunderstanding arose because the spoon in this thread is rather new with a modern hallmark. Mostly around 100 years old objects and marks are discussed here. Anyway, modern/current/new items are of less interest to me, but I understand your point concerning newly manufactured goods! (somehow). When we are talking about antiques, like mostly here, the situation is totally different. But as I already mentioned, I'll be back to this case later.
Have a nice evening.

[dnl]

Enjoy the holiday!

To finish this, the key here is exactly that, the old verses new. Apologies for not making that clear. I was responding to a modern website issue. No place in this forum where Assay Masters and hand punched hallmarks of old are pondered, discussed, and identified by scholars such as yourself. This issue is done. Be with family. There is much to celebrate now.

Best to all.

DNL

[Qrt.S]

As promised I revert to this matter after contacting the Eesti Proovikoda (Estonian assay office). Find below the rather confusing answer I got:

Hello!
From 1992 for mechanical stamping is used more detailed (in the ears ad face) control mark, but until September 2017 for laser engraved marks was used the first ( the simple ) variant
From September 2017 the both variants are the same -more detailed.

With best regards,

Eesti Proovikoda
http://www.metrosert.ee/proovikoda
+372 6814833 | proovikoda@metrosert.ee

As I understand it is that the old lion control mark was used 1992-9/2017 as a laser engraved mark alongside with the re-stylized lion as an "ordinary" mark.
As from September 2017 the old lion is abolished and only the re-stylized lion control mark is used...or?

Strange that this is not mentioned on Eesti Proovikoda's internet pages???