Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland
PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Essexboy Fisher
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Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Essexboy Fisher » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:39 pm

Hello, I recently saw and bought on line a small apostle style spoon. It had 2 marks struck to the rear of the bowl, 1 of which I thought was the “loth” standard mark that I associated with 19th century Germany although the spoon was suggested to be Norwegian. This spoon was not in my comfort zone so it came as a research tool. The first thing I thought when got hold of the spoon was that the figural finial was more like “Darth Vader” than an apostle. Pictures below.
Image


Looking at the numerical mark it appears to be 13¼L (13 and a quarter) and the only German (and Prussian) loth marks I have seen were whole numbers 10-14. Referring to the World Silver Standard “library resource” on our site, I note this also only shows whole numbers for Germany. However looking at standard values for other countries around the Baltic Sea (circa 19th century) fractional numbers as on my spoon are shown for Denmark. Additionally there are several posts on the Forum referencing the Norway as using these fractional silver standards. The finial then is not Darth Vader then, but possibly a Norse God.
Moving on to the smaller oval mark I struggle to confidently identify any thing from the mark. If it is a maker or an assay master it could be a JC mark or could it be a city mark? The nearest I found was the described as “Fleur de Lis” of the Danish city of “Odense”. There were some illustrations of “Odense” marks in a 2011 post.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=23949&hilit=odense

Still I need some help from the forum please. It would be nice to get the old “where,when,who” but any knowledge or ideas will help.
A few other queries then cropped up after my searches with this spoon.
I assume these fractional marks were conversions of original national standards to aid sales in Germany or because the countries had come under German “influence”. Is that correct? The history snippets I read indicated some flux in the politics and boundary’s of these Baltic States in that 19th century period.
What about the Baltic port towns like Riga and Tallinn? Were they always Russia influenced or were they also sometimes in the loth standard group? I know that Kliapeda (Memel) and Gdansk (Danzig) were associated with Prussia and likely used loth standard. Also Sweden with its long period of date marking silver did that country ever use loth notations? I am sure there is more knowledge from the forum to be gleaned.
Lastly, in the forum posts and on the website the “L” unit is described as Lodig,Lodigt,Loth and Lot which confuses research. I assume the Lot is an Anglicised version of Loth so perhaps these last 2 sentences may be a useful for others like me who usually concentrate on British plate and silver.
Yours
Fishless

Aguest
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Aguest » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:52 pm

It is an apostle spoon, and I did have a spoon which was quite strange, and it had the "three towers" hallmark, a silver content number of "924" (I believe it was 924, or a similar very strange silver content number), it had the assay master mark of Simon Groth, and then the hallmark which I just referred to as "the Octopus" because I could never find anything like it ___ I saw one other similar spoon for sale at an auction house ___ both of these spoons had blue-and-white enamel ___ I am trying to find a picture, but this was so long ago and it has been difficult to locate a pic of this spoon >>>> But yes, it was a Denmark maker because it had the three-towers mark and the Simon Groth hallmark

Aguest
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Aguest » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:18 pm

I think it had the additional mark of "P. HERTZ" and I did find a fork similar to my old spoon, and that fork has another hallmark on it I have never seen, so I assume "The Octopus" hallmark is the hallmark of a silversmith who contracted to sell his goods through the large retail shop of Peter Hertz, at least this is my theory at this time ::: 924 was the number +++

Essexboy Fisher
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Essexboy Fisher » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:57 pm

Hello, thank you Aguest for your replies. It is sad that you were unable to recover any photos of the marks that you feel are the same as the one on my spoon. Your recollection that a Simon Groth assay master’s mark (1863-1904) was also associated with that mark on one of your items would certainly give a possibility for dating my spoon. I am still hoping that if a spoon with your “octopus” mark has got to the UK, its maker must have other spoons (possibly with extra marks) spread around the Baltic to be found, identified and dated.
Yours
Fishless

WarrenKundis
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby WarrenKundis » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:15 pm

Gentlemen,

I also have a large enameled serving spoon which has the same four marks as previously described. From the top the Copenhagen date mark for 1890, 924 silver content mark, the mystery mark, and Simon Groth's master assay mark. On the link you provided there are 24 different examples of the Odense Denmark city mark. Is this just one more even through the upper and lower stems of the fleur de lis are missing.

Hope this narrows down your search.
Warren

WarrenKundis
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby WarrenKundis » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:45 pm

WarrenKundis wrote:Gentlemen,

I also have a large enameled serving spoon which has the same four marks as previously described. From the top the Copenhagen date mark for 1890, 924 silver content mark, the mystery mark, and Simon Groth's master assay mark. On the link you provided there are 24 different examples of the Odense Denmark city mark. Is this just one more even through the upper and lower stems of the fleur de lis are missing.

Hope this narrows down your search.
Warren


Having a technical issue; but let me ask this question on this as yet unknown mark. Is it the mark of a Danish silversmith who produced his own work while also designing for Peter Hertz. Other designers were Johan Rohde, Thorvald Bindesboll, and Harvald Slott-Moller. A shot in the dark but one I felt I needed to ask.

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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Aguest » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:10 am

I hope this helps, but I remember my spoon had a very similar blue-and-white enamel motif, similar to these Peter Hertz spoon marked 924 but without the "Octopus" hallmark which we are searching for.

My spoon had a unique "3-faceted-stem" where the shaft was not flat, but it was "triangular" with sharp edges, if that makes any sense. The top of the spoon was pointed, where the 3 facets all came together, and slightly curved, so I assumed it was a honey spoon of some kind. I had one example of this spoon, and then I saw another example a few months later, and I haven't seen another example since then.

I believe it was another designer altogether, but I could never figure out the actual designer. It was so unique-looking, it has to be another designer.

Image

Image

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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby Aguest » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:29 am

When I say "the top of the spoon was pointed," what I really more precisely mean is that it had a "hoof finial".

It was not an actual "deer hoof" finial. I have seen actual German "Deer Hoof" spoons which had a finial which was an actual, natural-looking, realistic "Deer Hoof" finial. This finial, although it would be best described as a "hoof finial," was a place where the three facets came together at a point and then slightly curved. I couldn't figure out how this spoon would rest on a table due to the 3-sided nature of the shaft, so I figured it would hang on a honey jar somehow, maybe it had a special honey jar designed for it?

At some point, this spoon should turn up, and I can get pics of the "Octopus" hallmark which looks just like the above hallmark.

It was a great spoon, and I am sorry I cannot find the pics to show it here, I have looked everywhere for the pics.

WarrenKundis
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Re: Loth Standard Spoon. Cloaked man finial.

Postby WarrenKundis » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:42 am

Please believe me when I say I know exactly what your describing, have two of them sitting next to me.

Both bowls tip back, there is an upward curve that begins to flow down then up again at the finial. The bowls have a white base enamel with flowing vines attached to red and blue flowers. It is bordered in blue with a single row of stars and crowns. Think of the stem as a three sided banna pointed at the top then slopping on both sides. A row of silver stars on a white enamel base with blue border. Reverse the hoof which bears a single silver star on white bordered by blue.

The large one, possible serving spoon, that I had described above is 8.375" (21.2725cm), has the same four marks along with our mystery mark. The demitasse spoon is 4.375" (11.1125cm), bears two marks; P Hertz and 924. In my mind this is the same pattern that is why I have asked about other silversmiths who produced their own work but also worked with Peter Hertz, George Jensen, and others.

Have attempted to expand the discussion in the general questions section by focusing on the Work of Peter Hertz himself and the firm of Peter Hertz. And yes need to figure out how to post images of both these spoons.

Warren


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