Danish Large Silver Serving Spoon - Royal Marks?

[Canaima]

I'm trying to obtain information on this large serving spoon has been in my family for many years. It came from my great, great grandfather, who was a Danish Royal Guard (with the red uniform & tall bearskin hat similar to the guards around Buckingham Palace in the UK). The "legend" in the family is that it comes from the Royal family, but of course, there's no proof to the rumor except for the marks on this spoon. But I do find the crown with the "HR" initials underneath it to be intriguing, but who knows?

Image 1:
Image 2:

On the hallmarks, the last one is not really that clear, caused by the inability of the curvature of the spoon to adapt to the flat surface of the scanner. I scanned it separately & added it to it's true position on the spoon. All the other marks are, I think, quite clear.

Any information on what the marks on this spoon are "saying" would be greatly appreciated.

Chuck[/quote]

[Hose_dk]

viewtopic.php?t=6620
You can start by reading this. Pictures disappered :( - so I give you a few.


Now the halmark that is misssing/unreadable is the only one we actualy need. we dont care about the position - because it does not matter. But we care about the letters what does it say?
So write what you see in last halmark and describe what you see in the mark with 3 towers - most likely Aalborg. But also 5 other cities can be the one.

Regarding the family legend - he most proberly stole the spoon at a restaurant. Neerby the garnision - or he stole it from the officers mess.

I will revert - after you have described the marks.

[Hose_dk]

looking and looking at the marks I have changed my mind a bit.
The 3 towers is Copenhagen 1838.
M is guardein Christian Olsen Møller 1831 to 1840. he was discharged because he had to litle skill and did not pay enough attention.
14½ L is of cause the silver contents. And is corresponding to 906. 14½ lødig was what was requested when we talk silver that was melted and items made out of this. Normal standard would be 13½ lødigt. So it contained more silver and less copper.
What we are missing is the monthmark. Stating that tax had been paid.
Last mark is maker - what does it say?

The patern is Musling - name of the shell. I have it in 2 other variants. One from first quarter 1800 and one from 1837. I soppose that patern is from around 1810 still manufactured in the 1900s.

[Canaima]

Thanks for the info, Continue to be interested in whatever else you can tell me.

That last hallmark - the one in the last position, is the most difficult to read, even with a loupe, because of the handle curvature, but it appears to be the initials "MV".

The assumption in the family has always been that my great great grandfather must have pinched the spoon to obtain it. Where he worked was the reason we wondered whether or not any of the markings would show that it came from crown silverware. But we never assumed that the spoon would have been "gifted" to him from the palace. After all, who would gift a single large spoon?

Any other information that the "MV" might provide would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for taking the time.

[Canaima]

By the way, Hose_dk, what do you make of the engraving of the crown & the initials at the other end of the spoon? I would understand the "HR" to simply be someone's initials which were engraved to denote original spoon ownership.

But why would they bother to engrave a crown? That's always been most puzzling to me.

[MLF]

Hello Chuck,

As you probably know, it is customary for reigning monarchs to add the Latin “Rex” after their name. Because of the crown, it would be tempting to assume that the “H.R.” monogram on your spoon refers to the monarch at the time. However, all the Danish kings since 1513 were either called Frederik or Christian, and their monograms have therefore been “FR” or “CR”.

You say your ancestor was in the Danish Royal Guards (“Den Kongelige Livgarde”). As you can read on the website The Danish Army 1801, the Royal Guards consisted of two regiments in the early 19th Century: the Foot Guards (“Livgarden til Fods”) and the Mounted Guards (“Livgarden til Hest”). In 1842, the latter merged with the Guard Hussar Regiment (“Gardehusarregimentet”), which was known simply as “Husar Regimentet” earlier in the century. I wonder if that’s what the crowned “H.R.” on your spoon refers to? Later the Guard Hussar Regiment was abbreviated “G.H.R.” — at least when marking bayonets (Markings on Danish bayonets) — but maybe your great, great grandfather served before then — or got an old spoon? Would you know approximately when he was in the Guards?

Best wishes

Mikael

[Hose_dk]

Could it be NW ?

[Hose_dk]

You will se a royal monarc initials at the picture posted by me.

The crown is a royal crown, but I would assume that royalty would use a crown like the one posted by me.
R could be Regiment ?

I am quits sure of my dating of the spoon - does it correspond with the time that your great great... time in the army?

[Canaima]

I carefully looked once again at that last mark and can confirm that it does indeed read "MV" and not "NV".

Now, I have just talked to my 87-year old father over the phone to get more information on this spoon (including dates) and he related to me information that I don't recall having heard before and that I wasn't previously aware of.

First of all, he told me that my great great grandfather was born in 1854. So if we extrapolate from that date, and assume that he was, maybe, about 20-years old or so when he was a King's Guard, that would put the date somewhere around 1874.

Furthermore, he relates that in the 1930's, his father also told him that my great great grandfather's aunt was in charge of, or head of, the Danish Mint and, as such, was the only person besides someone from the royal family who was allowed to use the royal mark on her own silverware. I wasn't aware of this previously, or had forgotten about it if I had ever been told about this earlier. Unfortunately, neither my father nor I have any other information about her.

So now the possibility excists that perhaps this spoon came from her own personal collection, or maybe she pinched this spoon from the royal family's collection as that this would correspond to your interesting remarks, MLF, that perhaps the "HR" stood for "Hussar Regiment", which does make sense. Unfortunately, we don't know the name of my great great grandfather's aunt and so cannot attribute the "HR" to her personal initials.

As happens so often in circumstances such as this, family history can be so easily lost over the years, and this is one such instance.

Any further comments would be greatly appreciated. And does the "MV", which has been related here to be in the position of the maker's mark, mean anything to anybody?

Chuck

[Hose_dk]

The problem is that I can find a matching NW - -looking like what I can see of mark and suitable in time.

we also have a MW - in Copenhagen -but no MV.

The missing monthmark puzzels me. Month mark should be there up until 1853. But Møller was only active until 1840. I have compared the towers used by Møller, and found that it must be 1838.
The spoon do not need to have been new when your family got it.

Regarding the use of royal mark - sorry that story is just a story.
Crowns existed for royalty, nobility, counts, etc and they all looked different. Status was importent. And the use of these ...

To the best of my knowledge this tableware was used at a inn or restaurant. That is corresponding to how they marked their silver. Or a private home.
The letters are around 1880/1900.

I will keep your question in mind should I get more information.

[Canaima]

Thanks for your input.

I don't know why this spoon lacks a month mark. Apparently not every piece was marked with one as you would have expected as witnessed by the fact that this one has none. So the only conclusion one can draw is that some had them, but others did not.

I guess the true mystery as to the further identification of this item lies in the upper engraving of the crown & the initials "HR". It must have some significance that perhaps someone else can enlighten us with. Taken in that light, I suppose MLF's guess is as good as the assumption that it came from a restaurant or some kind of a private family. Neither can be ascertained, only guessed at.

So if anyone else has any other information that can shed some light on this mystery, it would be greatly appreciated.

[admin]

I think the image of the maker's mark is shown upside down. I see it as AW.

Regards, Tom

[Hose_dk]

for Andreas Martin Westrup born 1795 master 11.6-1822 dead 1877
or (more likely) Andreas Magnus Westrup born 1788 master 14.6-1815 dead 1845 widow continues business until 21.9-1849

and why more likely because he was officer in the militia of citizens in Copenhagen.

[Canaima]

Of course, Admin!

I assumed when I looked at the hallmark initials that they were right-side-up, in line with the other hallmarks beside it. I never considered that this last hallmark might have stamped upside down. And you can see the result of this brilliant observation, Admin, with Hose-DK's reponse.

My thanks to both of you for this detective work!

[kerangoumar]

An observation: although the silver is Danish and the history is Danish, the heraldic crown is a Princely Crown of the Holy Roman Empire.
This is indicated by the three arches surmounted by an orb topped with a cross and by the large panels of ermine around the bottom (each with its own little tail).

Perhaps there is more history to be found here.