Help identifying maker

[chelsea98]

Hi,

I cant seem to find the maker of this clock and wondered if someone might be able to tell me who it was. Many thanks in advance. Retailed by Percy Edwards of Piccadilly.

[Ubaranda]

Hello!

Maker's mark is ITB = Johann Thomas Berg from St. Petersburg. He was known at the end of the 19th century.

Regards.

[Qrt.S]

@Ubaranda

Interesting info, could be ITB! (Looks like TTB!) Anyway, to my understanding Johan (only one n. He was a Finn!) My sources tell me that Berg punched (Cyrillic) ИБ, ИТБ around 1895~1903.
Mind my asking, but where from is the information that he punched Latin ITB also? Thank you in advance.
The hallmark indicates that the clock's frame was made before 1898(9).

[AG2012]

What makes you think Percy Edwards retailed this clock?
Percy Edwards of Piccadilly were retailers at the time; there are silver items sold in their boxes without additional marks on silver, i.e. traded within UK without double taxation. But this is supposed to be imported silver; was it possible to avoid import taxes and accordingly marking the frame?
Have you examined the clock? Who made it?
Very suspicious having in mind widespread fakes. A watch, clock repairer and trader in my neighborhood has regular customers from Eastern Europe who buy watches and mount them on frames with faked marks or they remove the dials, and enamel them with desirable and lucrative presentation imperial portraits.

[Mart]

Hello!

Maker's mark is ITB = Johann Thomas Berg from St. Petersburg.

I think this crooked brand is "ГТВ".
About "ITB". It can be either Johann Berg or Johann Bruns.

[Dad]

Hi.

I'm sorry to interrupt your discussion.
But, are the fake hallmarks on this photo frame getting in the way of your search for a master maker?

I think it should get in the way.

[Mart]

I didn't attribute these brands. But there are letters "ГТВ" and I'm always interested in what fake makers use.
Information about the silversmith "ITB" will not be superfluous from my point of view..

[chelsea98]

What makes you think Percy Edwards retailed this clock?
Percy Edwards of Piccadilly were retailers at the time; there are silver items sold in their boxes without additional marks on silver, i.e. traded within UK without double taxation. But this is supposed to be imported silver; was it possible to avoid import taxes and accordingly marking the frame?
Have you examined the clock? Who made it?
Very suspicious having in mind widespread fakes. A watch, clock repairer and trader in my neighborhood has regular customers from Eastern Europe who buy watches and mount them on frames with faked marks or they remove the dials, and enamel them with desirable and lucrative presentation imperial portraits.

Apologies for the delayed reply. The clock comes in a bespoke fitted leather case with Percy Edwards retail stamps gilded onto the linen. I know he sold other russian pieces, I had a russian agate, silver and enamel frame also retailed by him in a fitted case many years ago. Not too sure about avoiding import taxes, I'll have to look into that. Yes, there's a lot of fakes out there at the moment being sold (looking at you john nicholsons and hannams auctioneers) but I'm confident this is genuine.

[chelsea98]

Hi.

I'm sorry to interrupt your discussion.
But, are the fake hallmarks on this photo frame getting in the way of your search for a master maker?

I think it should get in the way.

can you tell me what leads you to believe they are fake marks? there's marks to the front of the clock and the back leg (which one side of has sheared off since these images were taken). it comes in it's original leather covered and felt lined bespoke fitted case which has the retailers details stamped in gold to the linen on the inside doors of the case. I don't doubt it's genuine, but am happy (or not) to learn otherwise.

[chelsea98]

Hello!

Maker's mark is ITB = Johann Thomas Berg from St. Petersburg. He was known at the end of the 19th century.

Regards.

Many thanks for your reply.

[Dad]

can you tell me what leads you to believe they are fake marks?

Yes, sure. I think I will not make life much easier for falstmakers if I point out one bright mistake. I will not show the rest of the markers. One is enough.
The coat of arms of St. Petersburg consists of two anchors and a scepter (a symbol of royal power). Please look Images of the coat of arms on the Internet.
Now look at the coat of arms of St. Petersburg in the hallmark of theme. An arrow is depicted on the brand instead of a scepter. The unknown forger was poorly educated or he copied bad photos.
I have never seen such a free treatment of the coat of arms of the capital on any of the original hallmarks of the St. Petersburg Assay Office.

[Qrt.S]

After a closer look I share Dad's opinion. Nice doing Dad! Unfortunately I didn't pay any particular attention to the hallmark but to the maker's mark only. Sorry about that.

Anyway, to find genuine Fabergé made objects on today's markets is RARE very RARE! The current markets seem to be almost flooded with recently found Fabergé objects but that is far from the truth. Too often you can find "newly" detected Fabergé objects for sale in Internet....browse yourself! Less than 10 % are genuine if even that. Forget that you might find a genuine piece in your garage or in your grandparents' attic!

About the anchors in the coat of arms. The one with "four hooks" is actually a so called river anchor (?) but I have also seen it defined that it would be grapnel, but ??? Anyway It doesn't make any difference wichone it is.

[Juke*]

Hi!

The clock have a nice appearance of a Russian clock from the end of the 19th century with a good quality. The carvings and enamel looks nice what one would expect from the time of period.

I think the main question for many is why the makers mark can not be found in well known catalogs from where it would be easy to ensure the correct maker and that the person would have done this types of items. Could it be a rare maker or a lost name in the records/museums? The mark itself looks somewhat untypical from the time period what one would expect so these brings question marks.

On the other hand for me the coat of arms seems quite correct, the anchor and arrow parts can be noticed even thought they look very similar. These are typically very simplified versions from the city of St.Petersburg coat of arms and can look somewhat different by different assayers. Here is an example by assayer Pavel Mihailov markings and as can be seen the anchor and arrow look quite similar:



Then there are a couple of other issues with the marking which I notice and possibly these are also to what Dad was referring. Could it possibly be a human error in the authentic marking process meaning it has not been done as to the code or is it just a forgery?

If the fitted leather case looks from the material perspective to be from the time period and the clock fits exactly to the case it is important.

In my opinion I would not directly condemn the clock to be a forgery but as there are some clear question marks the authenticity can not be confirmed. If the clock would be for sale I would retain from buying it because of the question marks.

Regards,
Juke

[Qrt.S]

Well Juke,
Interesting points, but I still stick to Dad's opinion, something is not in place here. Take a closer look at the "arrow's tip on the hallmark on the clock. I believe you will find that the end "looks" like a stylized tip of an arrow but it should show a scepter's top. Now take a look at the "arrow's" tip on your picture. You will find that it looks quite different. It shows a bird (eagle) with spread wings. Anyway, I believe that you have already noticed it.
Moreover, the clock could well be made from the mentioned period of time. That is not the actual problem here but the marking seems to be it! Also the ends (rings) of the anchors look a bit strange, but? This is not an easy case.
The hallmarks were usually made in the mint office in StP and sent around. Difficult to believe that they would have made a blunder like this with the hallmark, but again?

What talks against the above stated is why would anyone bother "fake" a rather ordinary clock made by a not particularly famous, almost unknown maker? Why isn't the maker's mark also faked to e.g. "FABERGE" or...???? But, but, but....

Have a nice weekend all of you!