Russian napkin rings – trompe-l'oeil

[Silverstone]

This is my first post in the forum.



This year I bought napkin ring a) in the form of a belt.
I have owned napkin ring b) in the form of a cuff for a long time.

The term trompe-l'œil (French for "fool the eye") can be used cautiously for these two unusual parts.



a) IL
Höbedamärgid Estis, p. 101
Lohfert, Julius Eduard August (1872-1896)
Reval (Tallinn – Estonia)
b) JAL
Postnikova-Losefa, Fig. 1762
unknown master (1868-1881)
St. Petersburg

Astonishing:
In the book "Höbedamärgid Estis" both maker's marks are assigned to "Lohfert, Julius Eduard August" (Alur Reimans, Tallinn 2005, page p. 101, no. 77).



"Probably the hallmark b) belonged to Lohfert.
In St. Petersburg there were at the time no masters with corresponding initials. There are also several works with this hallmark, which later bear Estonian stamps. The inspection of objects made in Reval in St. Petersburg in 1886 is nothing unusual. "
- ibid -

Proof:
My two napkin rings could be proof that the JAL hallmark can be assigned to the silversmith "Julius Eduard August Lohfert".

What are we waiting for?
I am now looking for a silver napkin ring from Lohfert in the form of a tie bow. Then the going-out clothes for the gentleman would be complete...
I don't accept to be successful, but my prototype is a nice replacement, isn't it?



P.S.
I look forward to our exchange of ideas on silver.
Regards
Silverstone

[oel]

Hi Silverstone, welcome to the forum. Indeed very nice, first time I see this type of napkin rings. Thanks for sharing.

Best,
Peter.

[Mart]

Hello!
I believe that the stamp of the "JAL" could belong to the silversmith Johann Anderson Layunen (Лаюнен) from St. Petersburg. He was a native of Vyborg province, born in 1835.

[Silverstone]

Thank you Oel for your kind „words of welcome“.
Mart, thanks for your information. Vyborg is located 70 miles from St Petersburg. This is really a new aspect.
Regards
Silverstone

[AG2012]

Hi,
What`s the diameter of the rings?
Just asking, because I happen to have a Russian 56 gold and diamond trompe-l'œil bangle by Carl Sievers, belt with two slits set with blue sapphires to resemble the buttons.
If the diameter is small, then they are really napkin rings; even having in mind girls had much narrower wrists at the time.
Regards

[Silverstone]

Hi AG2012,

belt: diameter 4 cm = 1,57 in - 14 grams
cuff: diameter 4,5 cm = 1,73 in - 43 grams

I am sure, my two objekts are napkin rings.
Both have a monogram.


Regards
Silverstione

[Mart]

Is it possible to take a photo of the "IL" brand more large and high-quality? Thanks!

[AG2012]

Right, 4.5 cm is napkn ring, no doubt !

[Silverstone]

Hi Mart,

the hallmark ist very small.



Regards
Silverstone

[Mart]

Thanks!
The stamp "JAL" was made before 1882.
The brand "IL" (I have not met in Revel before) I think was made around 1890.

[Qrt.S]

The punch JAL most likely belongs to Julius Eduard August Lohfert in Tallinn He was active as from 1868 (or 1872) to 1896. The punches were IL, IAL and the mentioned JAL. To my understanding he didn't work in St. Petersburg. The reason why you sometimes might find the mentioned mark in connection to St. Petersburg town mark is that the Tallinn assay office was closed down in 1873 and the assaying office/officials moved to either St.Petersburg or Riga. There are no known JAL punches in St. Petersburg for the period in question.

For the records:
Johan Lajunen (note the spelling!) was a Finn born i the county of Parikkala 3.3.1833. Parikkala is located in Southern Finland but not on the Carelian Isthmus where Viborg is.

Anyway, Lajunen became master in St. Petersburg 1866. His workshop was in Lechtukov lane number 11. He was married twice and passed away 1883. His 2nd wife Greta Kaisa Kekäläin continued with the business to 1885 when she sold the workshop to the rather well known master Petter Adolf Silventoin/Silventoinen (also a Finn). I have no records of that Lajunen would have worked in the Viborg area only in St. Petersburg. His punch is not known. The name Johann Lyunen (a misspelling!) is found in Ivanov as #2319, but the information connected to it tells "nothing"!

Moreover, there were a few "IL" punched used in Tallinn, but they are from an earlier period.

[Silverstone]

Mart, thanks again for your information.
This forum always offers space for reflection and knowledge.
Therein lies the fascination.

Qrt.S, thank you very much for your detailed facts.
Your statement agrees with my opinion.

Regards Silverstone

[Mart]

1. Estonian silversmiths branded their products in Revel (Tallinn) until the 1890s. They did not have the right to brand products in another region. The stamp of the Estonian master "JAL" should be found next to the coat of arms of Revel, and not sent to St. Petersburg.
2. There are a lot of "JAL" products with the brand of St. Petersburg starting from the late 1860s and up to 1882. I don't think anyone saw his brands in later years. Johan Lajunen had a fairly large workshop (up to 34 hired workers). He was a native of Vyborg province, as I wrote earlier. He worked in St. Petersburg and had his own brand.
3. Indeed, Рекка-Adolf Johan Silventoinen (PJS) worked further at the address of the "JAL" workshop, only the address is different: 14 Lotsmanskaya Street (ул. Лоцманская 14).
4. I see no reason to transfer the Estonian master to St. Petersburg.

[Silverstone]

Mart, I also accept your precise information.
Exciting!
Thank you very much for your answer.

Regards
Dorothee

[Qrt.S]

I'm sorry Mart, but your explanation is not fully correct.
Tallinn/Reval assaying office was shut down in 1873 and the assaying was partly overtaken by mobile assayers. Therefore the Tallinn master sometimes, rather often actually, had to send their objects for assaying to either St. Petersburg or Riga. And therefore the objects carries the marks of an assayer in either of the mentioned towns and their town mark. Masters in Tallinn mostly used St. Petersburg's assay office. They didn't "move" to StP. That is the reason why you see many St.P town marks on objects made by Tallinn makers.
Anyway, due to the use of mobile assayer you can find objects with Tallinn town marks up to about 1886(8).

Of course you will find objects with the JAL mark and St.P's town mark because of what I told above. There is only one single master resident in St.P known to have used the mark JAL. But he was active in the 18th century and has nothing to do with this.
JAL's workshop's address is irrelevant. It could have been located in different places.

Let's not mix Johan Lajunen in this topic. He has nothing to do with it.

Moreover, the German name was Reval. It was changed back to the old Tallinn name in 1918 when Estonia became independent for the first time.

[Silverstone]

Qrt.S,
wow, so lot to learn!

Thank you very much!
Silverstone

[Mart]

I'm sorry Mart, but your explanation is not fully correct...

I am very glad that there is a person who believes that I am always wrong)))
About a month ago, I tried very hard to explain to you a very simple question about the St. Petersburg assayer "AM". As a result, I received quite rude words from you in my direction. The desire to communicate is gone, but the time has passed and I will try again. However, I think that above I have already explained everything very clearly.
Let's leave aside your understanding of the history of assayers in Revel. In your opinion, since 1874 (probably after the death of Fedorov), the assayers Stepanov, Andreev were "jumping and flying" in different directions. This is a different issue.
1. All known stamps "JAL" (1860s-1882, St. Petersburg) are ideally suited to the time of work and date of death of Lajunen , and not someone else. Show the hallmarks "JAL" further up to 1896. I don't think you have them. This is the most important argument in the attribution of a silversmith. Try to think (Tämä on hyvin tärkeää).
2. There are quite a lot of JAL products and the Lajunen workshop in St. Petersburg was very large, which corresponds to what was said earlier. Do you know anything about the size of the Lohfert workshop in Revel?
3. Lajunen worked in St. Petersburg for many years, had a large workshop. In your opinion, he did not have his own stamp? Of course, I also considered the hallmarks of "IL", "IAL", "JL" (I hope so are you), but this is a completely different topic.
4. I have not read any of your arguments proving that the hallmark "JAL" belongs to Lohfert. Even the smallest argument. Maybe he repaired old spoons all his life, I don't know. And how are you?
You can attach the "IL" (Revel) stamp shown in this thread to the Lohfert in Reval if that helps you.
P.S. In the next topic, you are thinking about the assayer "НЛ" (Moscow). Try using one stick to make the letter “Д” from the letter “Л” and you will succeed well and very clearly.
I see no reason to continue the topic related to "JAL". All facts work only in one direction. Best wishes!

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
Please do not put words in my mouth that I haven't said or written. Anyway, you are not always wrong, but your writings gives the impression that your opinion is the one and only truth. I have tried to say that that is not always the case. There is still a LOT of unsolved matters regarding imperial Russian silver. You cannot have the correct answer to everything (as you seem to believe!). Nobody has it!
Claiming that you haven't met the mark IL in REVAL (not Revel) before shows that you are not fully familiar with the situation.There are 3 known IL marks in Reval.
1. Jakob Lange
2. Julius Lohfert (assumed only and I haven't said that it is 100% Lohfert's)
3. Jost Lübke
(and a 4th in Haapsalu)
In addition, if interpreted that the letter Л would/could be Д in a mark and make a conclusion based on that, I find it to be a rather ridiculous interpretation.
I mentioned in an early stage that let's keep Lajunen out of this.
You refer to Postnikova #1762. As an "expert in Russian silver" you must know under what circumstances Marina Postnikova and her colleagues wrote their book, as well as knowing the problems in it. I have recorded more than 100 incorrect/questionable interpretations of marks in it. As an example, look at page 200-201 and tell me what is the problem there?

The above shows how much you believe you know about Estonian/Russian masters.
There are more questionable arguments that you have made here, but never mind them!
I have nothing more to say!

[Silverstone]

Dear Mart, dear Qrt.S!

What a pity!
You were not "in tune" at the end of my article.

The inscription on a cigarette case by Karl Werlin could lead to a nice conclusion:
"What holds us together is the power of tones."


Let us in future enjoy in old russian silver! Smile!
Regards Silverstone

[Mart]

If a person does not notice that his words were rude, then this also says a lot about him. It's not customary among my friends.
1. What are your unresolved questions regarding Russian silver? If this is at the level of which of the probirers is the owner of the "ИЛ" brand in Moscow (in accordance with the PL), then it's simple, because as I told you earlier, this is probably not the correctly read brand "ИД" of Dubrovin. This is a frequent case. I was talking about it and you called it a "ridiculous interpretation". This is a matter of your conscience. Is there anything else besides that bothering you? Don't hesitate to ask. There are excellent experts on Russian silver on this forum ( Dad, Ubaranda, Alex ...) and they will answer your question if it is really interesting.
2. Tell me, please, how can you know the level of knowledge of a stranger to you?
3. You are talking about the Estonian masters of "IL", not me. That's your problem. I don't have such a task. I was talking about St. Petersburg silversmith Lajunen and its most likely brand "JAL" in the absence of worthy candidates.
4. I said earlier that I don't watch the book of PL regularly and I gave a screenshot especially for you because it almost corresponds to the truth. If you have stamps that do not confirm these data, then please show them (I ask for the third time, but there is no answer). But you don't have them! If you don't have stamps, then you needlessly insulted the authors of the book in an error, which in this case is not. The book of PL is a huge and important work for beginners, and on some issues for everyone. I can assume that without it you would not have minimal knowledge about Russian silver.
5. Your 100 inaccuracies found in the PL book are very, very, very few. There are still many hundreds ahead.
6. Page No. 200 in the book of PL. Do you really think that this is a difficult question? Polish and Belarusian masters are mixed because of the similarity of the coats of arms of the two cities. This is a question for the first grade of elementary school for those who are interested in silver.
7. You conclude: I don't know anything about Estonian masters))))). Is this your nightmare on a January night? You have not answered any of my questions and persistently defend the weakest version, probably not having the courage to admit the obvious.
I can believe that you are the best in the world (or even in the whole universe) at understanding Russian silver, but only among foreigners. The main thing is not to write a book. This is my last such detailed answer to you, since I do not have time for a conversation without a purpose.
I think you may well be able to suggest something about Finnish masters. I make attributions to about 2-5 new silversmiths a week or specify the period of their work. There is not enough time for everything. If you tell us in detail, for example, about the "jumping" probirers in Reval after 1874 (unless the Dad had not mentioned this before), or say something about Иоганн Липияйн (СПб), Эдуард Пюльккянен (Москва) , then it will be really interesting and useful.
Good luck to you! All the best!