Ivan Lebedkin

[minca99]

I have taken pictures of the silver objects made by Ivan Lebedkin. I believe it to be the original piece, but please add your comments.

[Mart]

Ivan Lebedkin has never been a silversmith. He was a government employee.
The silversmith is Gennady Alekseev (ГА) from Moscow.

[Qrt.S]

Like Mart already mentioned; Ivan Sergejevich Lebedkin was an official (public servant), an assayer in Moscow 1898-1914. That means that the maker cannot be Gennady Aleksejeff (1854-1883). The maker ГА is Gerasim Afanasjeff 1896-1917 in Moscow.

[Mart]

Like Mart already mentioned; Ivan Sergejevich Lebedkin was an official (public servant), an assayer in Moscow 1898-1914. That means that the maker cannot be Gennady Aleksejeff (1854-1883). The maker ГА is Gerasim Afanasjeff 1896-1917 in Moscow.

Lebedkin has never been an assayer. He was the manager of the Moscow assay district. Big boss.
Gerasim Ivanovich Afanasyev was a jeweler, not a silversmith.
Gennady Alekseev was a silversmith and worked with pleasure in the years you did not specify. On the clipping of G. Alekseev in 1894, he made salt shakers.
The initials that you found at the PL belong to another master.
Church things were made by a completely different master.

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
What are you talking about!? If Lebedkin never assayed it means that the punch ил belongs to somebody else, who, may I ask? What is the source for this ridiculous statement?
In addition, please do not show any "copy/paste" pictures here as evidence (of what?) In addition, yes the advertisement states that saltcellar are made, but it also says that snuff-boxes are made, meaning that it proves nothing at least not that he didn't make other objects. Moreover, Afanasiev OWNED a jewelry shop. That doesn't make him a jeweler only or in general a jeweler at all. He was a goldsmith i most sources I am aware of. Not particularly well known, but anyway...

BTW.
Postnikova is not my source. There are other sources available. Unfortunately the biggest problem is that officials in St. Petersburg decided to to burn unnecessary papers in the official archives around 1873. In addition, a lot of documentation the respective archive was also lost in a big fire in the archive at about the same time. That is a big problem investigating imperial Russian makers today. Important documents are not to be found.

Claiming something without any reliable backup source is not advisable!

[Mart]

Earlier I spoke only about Lebedkin's profession. He was never an assayer (пробирер). He was the manager of the Moscow assay district (управляющий московским пробирным округом) and he himself never held a hammer in his hands.))) His initials are on the stamp, of course.
The words about the snuffbox in the advertisement do not apply to G.Alekseev. Of course, Alekseev also did other things besides salt shakers. My information shows that G. Alekseev worked in Moscow not only in the years that you indicated earlier.
There are many salt shakers, sugar bowls with a mark "ГА" like in this topic.
You think that the master jeweler Afanasyev. I think it's the silversmith Alekseev. No problem!

[AG2012]

Hi,
Hair-splitting discussion how to define an assayer.
If we define an assayer strictly as those who held hammers and punches, we will never know any name of a single employee who worked in assay offices.
All said, hammer or not in their hands, heads of assay offices meet the definition of assayers. Besides, I doubt they would appoint an assayer to supervise the process, being just an ignorant bureaucrat without the slightest knowledge of the practical aspects of the trade.

[Qrt.S]

@дорогой друг Mart
I have dealt with imperial Russian silver and its marking procedures/legislation for many years but never read or heard anything like you are presenting now. Somehow I get the impression that you has no knowledge of the old Russian legislation/strict laws, regulations regarding marking of imperial silver not to mention what who could do and how!
Your claim is so revolutionary that it needs hard verification and proves. Please show relevant and genuine documentation supporting your claim. If you cannot do that I will forget what you stated in less than a fraction of a second and pay no further attention to what you might write on these sites in the future.
I repeat: Please show relevant/genuine documentation or links supporting your claims.

[Mart]

I probably don't understand your question or it's translation difficulties.
Who is the "assayer" for you? In Russian there are concepts assayer, assay master, probirer, controller of samples, manager of the assay chamber, manager of the assay district, etc. (пробирный мастер, пробирщик, контролер проб, пробирер и т.д.) These are all different concepts.
Ivan Lebedkin has never been an assayer. There are his initials on the stamps of 1899-1908, but he never put the stamps with his own hands. He was the manager of the Moscow assay district.
I've already said it twice and I don't understand what's wrong for you here? Please specify which documents you want to see.
PS: if you have any questions about Russian assay laws, then ask. I will try to answer.

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
Obviously you don't understand me. Maybe there is a language problem here. Unfortunately my Russian skills are not good enough to write you in Russian (К сожалению, я недостаточно хорошо владею русским, чтобы писать вам по-русски).
I already requested you to show the needed documentation that shows that the assayer was not a qualified goldsmith, do it please. I have no need of asking you anything. However, I try to explain you what is the difference between a Russian assayer and a maker (goldsmith).

The goldsmith/maker is the person (workshop) who "made" the object and who brings his "work" usually in parts and unfinished to the assaying office in order to have the object's legal silver (gold) fineness approved by the assayer. The assayer is as said a government official whose only task is to verify the legal fineness min. 84 zolotnik. When he has done that, he punches his punch on the object and returns it to the "maker" who reverts to his workshop and finishes the object(s) ready for sale. The story is a bit longer but the said will do.

The assayer is a civil servant, a qualified goldsmith, but working in the assaying office located in certain towns, (not in all towns in former Russia). His only task is/was to check and guarantee the legal fineness of the presented object(s). If the fineness is illegal and if less than 84 zol. the object is destroyed and the maker (goldsmith) punished. 1.st time severely fined. 2. time put in jail (посадить в тюрьму) and 3. time deported to Siberia and all his belongings confiscated to the state. The assayer is/was as said a qualified goldsmith otherwise he was unable to execute his duties. During his assaying period, he is not allowed to make any objects himself in valuable metals. His punch with his mark guarantees the legal fineness. An object in silver or gold must be approved by the assayer otherwise it cannot be officially sold on the market. The only exception was private orders e.g. objects made to the court, but that is another story.

In the assaying office there could be junior and senior assayers. Actually the case is much longer and more complicated but this will do.
Надеюсь, теперь вы меня лучше понимаете.

[Mart]

Thanks! I felt like a primary school student))).
I'll try again. I have already written several times that Lebedkin was not an assayer, but was the manager of the Moscow assay district. And it is. I know Lebedkin's life step by step. He never branded the products himself. He was the boss. That's all. Where is the error here? Why did you write this excursion into the history of assay business in Russia? Why do you write about the difference between a silversmith and an assayer, I do not understand.
About your information.
Punishments. I met the first decrees in the middle of the 17th century. Then they changed many times. Punishments at different times could be stricter or milder than you wrote.
Assayer, assay masters. At first there were assay masters (пробирный мастер) in Russia. In provincial cities, they were often the children of silversmiths who were trained in the capitals (in accordance with the Decree of 1733) and then returned home or former silversmiths. They received salaries from local authorities.
Since 1840, assay masters have been liquidated in Russia and probirers (assayers, пробиреры) have been appointed throughout the territory. They received salaries from the state. Most of them have graduated from educational institutions. They were never silversmiths. This is the main difference between an assay master and an assayer (пробирный мастер и пробирер).

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
Nice try my good man, but it needs quite a bit more before I buy your statements above. You have not convinced me yet. I haven't seen or read anything whatsoever of what you tell above in any documents, books or on these sites, still I have dealt with Russian silver and its marks and marking procedures for several years.
What caught my attention immediately is your statement below:

"I......met the first decrees in the middle of the 17th century. "
....17th century!!!? I wonder what decrees those might be? You see to my knowledge the oldest edict, decree, assay charter or whatever you may call it is from February 13, 1700. That is the 18th century. The next decree from December 11, 1711. Somehow reliable hallmarking in Russia started more or less based on the edict of 1700, before that more or less no actual rules, nothing or perhaps "worthless markings" Therefore the hallmarking regulations were established by Peter the Great to guarantee the buyers the minimum fineness of valuable metals. In those days gold and silver.
One more thing. If Lebedkin was not a goldsmith, he still had a punch (how come?). Who used it and took responsibility for legal fineness, what if illegal? Besides there are several examples of assayers misusing their right to punch. Among those Aleksander Ilitj Jaschinkov/Jashinov (АЯ) in St.Petersburg 1795-1826. He was caught and severely punished, but who used his punch? According to you somebody else, who? But AJ took the blame for not have done anything? Do you really believe this yourself?

Present or refer to (links, books...) some genuine documentation and we can discuss further, if not, I see no reason to continue with this topic.
I would be happy indeed if some other attendants reading this would comment Mart's claims: Ubaranda, AG2012...please your comments (possible verification) are badly needed! (I'm confused and have nothing more to add!)

[AG2012]

Hi,
Regardless of terminology and definitions, what we see on silver items is assayer`s mark (initials) with year and town mark etc (depending on the period).
Employee’s positions are meaningless to discuss; and if someone is interested in further research let him or her write a book or doctorial dissertation on newly recovered 17th century parchments on appointed assayers and legislation in Russia with Tartars pillaging the country.
Compare with the oldest assay office in the world (The Goldsmiths` Company of London):
With due respect, who cares about Warden, Deputy warden, Superintendent Assayer, Lab Assistant, tool makers, Supervisor Handmarking, Samplers, and god knows who else.
The final result is LEOPARD`S HEAD FOR LONDON ASSAY OFFICE, the same as initials of assayer in Russia, whatever his title was, hammer or no hammer in his hands, and whatever definition of his position was.
Let`s not overdo the issue.
Regards

[Mart]

Is it bad when the information is correct?
I don't see any reason to continue this topic either, because there are no questions for me here.
1. Yes, the 17th century, but I wrote not about the assay statute, but about punishments for speculating with gold and silver.
2. Almost all Russian probirers, some of whom you have known,since the mid-19th century, were engineers, graduates of the Mining Institute, and no masters of gold. Ivan Lebedkin is among them. After the institute, he worked at the Mint, in the Mining Department, organized exhibitions. At the end of the 19th century, he became the Manager of the Moscow assay district.
3. I asked you what kind of document do you want to see?
4. Here is an approximate structure of the Moscow Assay Office in 1900. Specially for you.
- Manager (I.Lebedkin)
- assistant manager
- several probirers
-about 10 assistants of probirers
Every day dozens of craftsmen brought thousands of gold and silver items. Do you think that Lebedkin put the brands on them?
Indeed, if you don't know what document you need, then maybe someone else will explain it more clearly than I did!

[AG2012]

Do you think that Lebedkin put the brands on them?

No, he did not mark silver himself (nobody here claimed that), but he was responsible for the standard and therefore and because of that a silver item is described e.g. as ``assayer Ivan Lebedkin`` and not ``assayed by an anonymous assayer of Moscow assay office where Ivan Lebedkin was the manager ``.
Where is the problem? Who held the hammer? We do not discuss that, do we?

[Mart]

I have answered all the questions already.
"...Ivan Sergejevich Lebedkin was ... an assayer in Moscow 1898-1914..."
He was never an assayer.
"....If Lebedkin was not a goldsmith, he still had a punch (how come?)..."
He was never a goldsmith.

[Dad]

Hi,

I will not delve into clarifications regarding the meanings of the terms "assay master," "assayer", "probier," "assay office," etc. This is indeed not interesting for most participants. But I'll explain one question.
In 1899, in accordance with the new Test Statute of 1896, new assay marks began to be used in assay offices. In the new assay marks, unlike the previous ones, there were no initials of the assaer and the "sign of certification" became the same for all assay offices (girl head in kokoshnik). Belonging to the test office (formerly the "town mark") began to be indicated by the initials of the Manager of the Assay Office.
Thus, it turns out that your dispute is nothing. Initials I.L. (Ivan Lebedkin) is only a replacement for the "town mark", and not the designation of the assayer. In 1908, these initials will be replaced by the Greek letter.
I hope I explained it understandably. ))

[Ubaranda]

In addition to the discussion, I would like to present the portrait of Ivan Lebedkin.

[Qrt.S]

Thank you Dad and Ubaranda.
Unfortunately you lost me now!!! To my understanding the assaying office in certain towns in former Russia were representatives for the government, or? The assayer's "task" was to guarantee the legal gold/silver fineness, or? If it was correct they punched their mark the object, if illegal the object was "destroyed" and the maker punished (severely). It is also known that some assayers did illegal markings (probably for money) in silver not fulfilling the legal requirements for the minimum fineness e.g. 84 zolotnik and were severly punished. Is this correct or not? This is also written in different documents (and books)

Now you are telling me that the what we call "assayers punch" (the initials) is "nothing", only a punch! However, it is know that some assayer in the past were not so honest and were also punished for punching their marks on illegal silver/gold objects. How is this to be understood if the assayer's punch is only "a replacement for the town mark"? Something is not in place here. What do I not understand?

[Mart]

The state controlled the assay chambers and their employees.
Control of the correct silver sample is one of the tasks of the assayers.
If the sample was not correct when checking in the assay chamber, then the product should have been broken and the assayers did the remelting. There is no punishment for the masters. There was only payment for the melting.
Perhaps some assayers were not always honest. This is not a rule, but it is an exception.
Until 1896. The assayers tested the silver and stamped it with their own initials.
After 1899. The assayers checked the silver and stamped it with the initials of the assay district manager (in Moscow it was Lebedkin's "ИЛ"). The control over the correctness of the sample was the same as before, but the brands of all assayers were the same. Now there was no need to make new brands when changing assayers. Only when the assay district manager changes.
The big problem was not the dishonesty of the assayers, but the fake brands that the silversmiths made. Some of them did not want to pay a large duty.