Interesting find

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cww1960
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Location: Perth, Western Australia

Interesting find

Postby cww1960 » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:59 pm

These spoons have been in the same family for about 70 years, I do love the embellishments from the Antique seller particularly the comment about been “blessed by the Pope”

Even 70 years ago stories were made up to sell.

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Qrt.S
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Re: Interesting find

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:47 am

Well stories are stories. The letter is written with imagination during a period when hardly anybody knew what was going on in the USSR even less about Russian silver. There is absolutely nothing indicating that the spoons have anything to do with the Russian court. The text in the box's lid is only Gustaf Gustaovich Klingert's silver and gold factory's adress in Moscow. The quite ordinary and common (tea or jam) spoons are made in Klingert's factory in Moscow between 1899-1908. The technique is called cloisonnée (cell enamel), Sorry if I have disappointed you.

AG2012
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Re: Interesting find

Postby AG2012 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:39 am

Hi,
Authentic boxed spoons by Klingert factory, marked ГК (GK) and the first Kokoshnik.
See here:
https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_kokoshnik_01.html
The letter is good enough as a proof the set was bought in Palestine in 1941 and as such should be cherished.
It is a fascinating piece of history. It shows the meaning of being in the right place at the right time.
(In 1941 it was much better to run antique shop in Jerusalem than in Berlin).
(Interestingly, the buyer had to be the member of British forces because The AIF officially ceased to exist on 1 April 1921. Or he visited Palestine when retired and used his rank).
The rest is pure imagination by the seller who wanted to please lucrative buyer. Unprofessional and incorrect data.
1. Dating back to the middle or towards the end of last century is completely wrong dating.
2. Cloisonné is wrongly attributed to Tula.
3. Hard enamel is not made of ``crushed stones`` but powdered glass.
4. ``Pure silver dipped in pure gold`` is wrong; it is 875 fineness.
5. Klingert factory had the ``appointment to the court`` warrant, but that does not mean the particular set was made for the court and donated by the church and ``blessed by the Pope`` (in Imperial Russia ?) shows excellent imagination of the seller to please the buyer.
Enjoy your spoons and the letter.
Regards

cww1960
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Interesting find

Postby cww1960 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:53 am

(In 1941 it was much better to run antique shop in Jerusalem than in Berlin).
(Interestingly, the buyer had to be the member of British forces because The AIF officially ceased to exist on 1 April 1921. Or he visited Palestine when retired and used his rank).

No you are incorrect about the AIF, if you look at the letter it says 2/16th AIF this was the second AIF raised in Australia for WW2 to fight the Germans (among others), Lt Col Baxter-Cox was its 1st CO, from Western Australia, which is where I got these from. As mentioned, they come directly from the Baxter-Cox family so certain they have had these in the family for 70 odd years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Baxter-Cox

I agree the rest of the letter is pure salesman's bullcrap, just by saying if was possibly made in almost a 70 year span shows the understandable lack of knowledge of the merchant.

However, it would've been nice if he had put the name of person whom he had bought it off, but no doubt it had changed hands many times before he sold it to Baxter-cox

cww1960
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Interesting find

Postby cww1960 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:56 am

Qrt.S wrote:Well stories are stories. The letter is written with imagination during a period when hardly anybody knew what was going on in the USSR even less about Russian silver. There is absolutely nothing indicating that the spoons have anything to do with the Russian court. The text in the box's lid is only Gustaf Gustaovich Klingert's silver and gold factory's adress in Moscow. The quite ordinary and common (tea or jam) spoons are made in Klingert's factory in Moscow between 1899-1908. The technique is called cloisonnée (cell enamel), Sorry if I have disappointed you.


No you have not disappointed me, I knew what they were when I bought them, I just find the letter that goes with them to be wonderful and a bonus

Qrt.S
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Re: Interesting find

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:37 am

@AG2012
AG2012 wrote:Hi,

4. ``Pure silver dipped in pure gold`` is wrong; it is 875 fineness.
5. Klingert factory had the ``appointment to the court`` warrant, but that does not mean the particular set was made for the court


You could have mentioned that spoons are silver 875/1000 but the spoons are electrolytic gilded with 100% gold, but the layer is an extremely thin layer.

Products ordered and bought by the court didn't carry any marks except for the scratched so called "inventory number", (an incorrect expression). these spoons carry clear punched marks.

Aguest
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Re: Interesting find

Postby Aguest » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 am

It is great to see authentic Klingert because there is a lot of replica Klingert out there and this thread will educate many people. ::::

AG2012
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Re: Interesting find

Postby AG2012 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:31 am

It is great to see authentic Klingert because there is a lot of replica Klingert out there and this thread will educate many people


Right, and take closer look at imperfections in cloisonné (enamel not evenly contained within cells, different thickness of opaque enamel and notorious problem with translucent red).
Inferior to e.g. Louis Kuppenheim, Anton Michelsen and David Andersen etc.
In a word, overestimated Russian silver, most likely due to the myth of unfortunate destiny of Imperial family.
In conclusion, at the turn of 19th century, Russian silversmiths were still practicing old methods of hand made silver (unlike machine mass produced silver in the West), but most of the time that was the only advantage when judging ordinary pieces meant for everyday use.
Then, there is silver of the highest quality custom made for privileged clientele (not found in garage sales).
But all said, in matters of taste, there can be no disputes.
Regards

cww1960
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Interesting find

Postby cww1960 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:52 pm

AG2012 wrote:
It is great to see authentic Klingert because there is a lot of replica Klingert out there and this thread will educate many people


Right, and take closer look at imperfections in cloisonné (enamel not evenly contained within cells, different thickness of opaque enamel and notorious problem with translucent red).
Inferior to e.g. Louis Kuppenheim, Anton Michelsen and David Andersen etc.
In a word, overestimated Russian silver, most likely due to the myth of unfortunate destiny of Imperial family.
In conclusion, at the turn of 19th century, Russian silversmiths were still practicing old methods of hand made silver (unlike machine mass produced silver in the West), but most of the time that was the only advantage when judging ordinary pieces meant for everyday use.
Then, there is silver of the highest quality custom made for privileged clientele (not found in garage sales).
But all said, in matters of taste, there can be no disputes.
Regards


Agree, these peices were never made to be collectables but to used everyday, that is their charm.

AG2012
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Re: Interesting find

Postby AG2012 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:54 am

Your spoons were made here in Moscow; antique shop now.
Accompanied with the letter of provenance, they are valuable piece of history and, being authentic without any doubt, a rare find.
Due to plethora of fakes sometimes difficult to disclose, I can bet if you posted them without the box and without the letter, there would have been responses classifying them as modern fakes.
Enjoy them, do not try to clean them with abrasives (gilding !) and save the letter.
Cheers.

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Dad
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Re: Interesting find

Postby Dad » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:25 am

Hi!

Nice spoons!

AG2012 . Nobody them (Louis Kuppenheim, Anton Michelsen and David Andersen etc) make such beautiful red enamel as Russian ...)))

AG2012
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Re: Interesting find

Postby AG2012 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:06 am

Right, Russians are superior in every aspect.


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