Grachev Brothers Spoons - Imperial Cypher?

[Coerulea]

I have pictures, but cant seem to figure out how to post them?

[oel]

Please read the forum rules. No questions about value.
For information how to attach and embedded images see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=42199

Peter.

[Coerulea]

Thanks Peter for your help, apologies, I don't need any answers regarding the value... just wanted to explain that I felt that may mean the spoons are counterfeit. Below are pictures:

[Coerulea]

Apologies everyone, my initial post was deleted, any information on these? I was told that they are Grachev brothers, and were originally purchased in the 1990s from the estate of a forms Soviet Officer involved in inventory of the winter palace named Genady Yakovlev. I haven't been able to find any information on this person. What are your opinions on the authenticity of these 6 spoons?

[AG2012]

FAKE.Origin: Bulgaria.
Regards

[Coerulea]

Thanks so much for the info! For future reference what is a "tell" with these, so I will know if I encounter similar in the future.

[Juke*]

Hi!

This is an interesting case. Remember always to clean the marks first as it is more easy to evaluate them.

As far I can see the marks are very well done and seem to be authentic in my opinion. The pattern in neo-empire suits very well with the period of the markings.

The only question mark is the initials of the tsar Nikolai II which always is a concern when royal markings exist because it raises questions of authenticity as these are easy included in objects to get a sky high value. If there would be a proofed chain of ownership this would be vital for the proof of authenticity.

Regards,
Juke

[AG2012]

If there would be a proofed chain of ownership this would be vital for the proof of authenticity

The Tzar family used those spoons in Winter Palace,and when the Palace was stormed, one of the Bolsheviks nicked them off the dining table and the lot finally ended up in Bulgaria.

The SAME seller has obviously well established chain of ownership with imperial courts, offering currently:
1.Louis XIV pocket watches (one sold,one in stock)
2.Presentation watch;case decorated with portraits of Wilhelm II, German Emperor and Franz Joseph I of Austria
3.Faberge award Alexander III Cypher pin brooch
4.Ottoman Empire Sultan watch
The cherry on the cake:
ONE OF A KIND gold enamel watch for Catherine II The Great
But the seller wants to be progressive.Therefore he offers XVIII century French revolutionary watch owned by Robespierre and even Mao Zedong (their portraits in enamel).
Regards

[Juke*]

Hi AG2012,

If you have found the seller with the mentioned offerings the case should have originally been clearly closed. Quite simply.

Regards,
Juke

[AG2012]

Facts without irony:more or less serious fakes of ancient Roman coins were produced in Bulgaria more than 30 years ago.
``Bulgarische Fälschung ! `` exclaimed the dealer in Vienna as soon as I showed him one rare Roman coin.Still,those coins and other ``ancient`` artefacts flooded the market (fibulas,figurines,jewelry,intaglio rings).
Those coins were not properly minted,though;they were cast in mold,in Rome a hammer was used to smash the dies to imprint the coins.
Then,they shifted the production to collectors obsessed with imperial courts and royalty, particularly Russian Tzar family.
Casting spoons is very easy for them,as well as enamelling in cheap small kilns.
There is competition all over the world;Eastern Europe,China,India,god knows where else.
But people still believe in ``great finds`` at garage sales,thrift shops and trust online sellers.
Hopeless.
Regards

[Goldstein]

In my opinion are the shown spoons authentic - they should be cleaned and polished! This pattern is sometimes found - mostly single pieces in good condition with all the marks perfectly struck. I have my doubts about the "Bulgarian source" - what comes from there looks different....

Here an other not often seen spoon:





Goldstein

[AG2012]

Authentic,but cleaning would destroy Tzar`s DNA.
Perfectly matching Catherine The Great pocket watch and Alexander III diamond brooch from the same seller who offers authentic items from every generation of Russian emperors, just name it - they are always in stock.

[AG2012]

Now it makes sense ``how it's done``; the authentic spoon shown by Goldstein has NO Imperial cypher.A spoon of the same pattern was used and the cypher added, either a mold was made and spoons cast, or cyphers hard soldered (one cannot tell without having them in hands).Anyway,it is much easier than making the mold for the whole spoon.That's what they do with watch cases;royal cyphers added on already existing cases.That is what they did with Roman coins.An average dentist assistant,an amateur,and let alone a professional jeweler can do ``lost wax`` casting.

In spite of obvious facts people are either naive,ignorant or malevolent;Catherine the Great Pocket Watch with your name engraved on the back sells for only a dozen of euros, but when offered for a tens of thousands with fraudulent intentions (the portrait done on pre-existing gold watch) wise guys malevolently claim it's authentic.

No need to engage in the subject any more.Buy !

[AG2012]

The same source;This one is obviously soldered (not very dangerous fake,though).



The same source;family or single,according to taste-always in stock.

[Coerulea]

Thanks so much everyone, the spoons were to be a good from a very well meaning person who knows I love antique silver, but is less knowledgeable on the subject.

I did some searching and found the seller... indeed the available items would make a museum jealous.

I have gently asked if it’s possible to return the items.