Unknown city and maker

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Kirils
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:10 am

Unknown city and maker

Postby Kirils » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:03 am

Hello

I was wondering whether anyone could identify the maker (КУ) and place where it was made (three dots).

Thank you in advance.

Image

Image

AG2012
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby AG2012 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:57 am

Hi,
I think it is Baku (three golden flames),now in Azerbaijan.Maker is unknown to me.
Regards

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:58 am

I my eyes it is a suspicious mark. The "flames" look more like balls. In addition, Baku's flames are the other way, one above two.

AG2012
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby AG2012 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:53 am

Possibly ПЛ No 109 upside down.Town mark struck separately from 84.Does not look like three flames but the mark is too small.Have nothing to compare with,though.

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:18 pm

I don't think so. Look at the number 4. It should be "closed" in the upper side. Here it is open. In addition, if the town mark would be up side down, the fineness mark should have notches. It hasn't. Unfortunately I believe it is a fake mark.

Aguest
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Aguest » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:27 pm

The "84" without the tip-top of the number "4" appears on Persian (Iran) silver from 1967-1979 ::: Possibly Persian (Iran) duty dodger from 1967-1979 :

There is no "Armed Lion" hallmark on this spoon which I believe was an official mark which should accompany silver from this period. :::

The three dots might be "the three-dot symbol of Tishtrya" which represents the three-part motto "Bien penser, Bien dire, Bien faire" which replicates the famous Zoroastrian motto "Good Thought, Good Speech, Good Action" ::::::

It's some sort of free-mason spoon from Iran (Persia) which (I am assuming) was not sent to assay, but it had to be pretty-well faked, these marks are very good forgeries, they were so good that I began to ask myself, why would you make such a small spoon with such well-faked hallmarks especially given that I myself have actually bought genuine Russian spoons for an extremely low price over the years, what could possibly be the point in faking this spoon? There had to have been a motive other than financial gain. It could be a spoon used for ritual use in an underground Zoroastrian Mason society?

Aguest
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Aguest » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:31 pm

The "Three Dots" are inside a "Ziggurat" (see the 3-distinct steps on the side?) which is a stair-step pyramid which are found in.....guess where?

An ancient Zoroastrian masonic symbol inside an ancient stone building, is anybody else with me here?

oel
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby oel » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:49 am

Not fake nor hallmarks but fantasy marks.
In the 18th to early 20th centuries the silversmiths working in the geographic regions of northern Persia were strongly influenced by the neighbouring Imperial Russian Empire. At the time, Russia used the Zolotnik System in which the 84 purity designation equated to a fineness of 875 silver. The imitative use of the 84 designation , seen in Persian, Arabic and sometimes western numeral, was adapted in Persia and Arab territories, also as an 875 silver fineness, and was used especially for goods destined for export and the tourist trade. National hallmarks were first introduced in Iran in 1966 using two domestic silver standards: the lion with scimitar in double frame for 900 and single frame for 875

Source: Hallmark Research Institute volume II Asia, Middle East, Africa
Three dots
https://tattoo.yoso.eu/japanesetattoo/three-dots-tattoo

Peter.

Kirils
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:10 am

Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Kirils » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:31 am

Yes, it does look like Iranian 84 silver mark, but there is a big question? The maker Initials are written in Cyrillic КУ. Even if КУ is fake, what was the point of placing it there? It does not add value.

Aguest
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Aguest » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:44 am

I was looking at that "KY" and I think the letter "K" is genuinely the letter "K" (a few popular kings had "K" names in ancient Persia). :::

But if you look at the "Y" I do not believe it is a true letter "Y" ::: I believe it is has something to do with the Persian alphabet. ::::

Look very closely at the "Y" and you will see it is 2 distinct characters, one upper "swoop" character, and the lower part is more like a dot. :::

Also I wonder if the spoon is "cast" in any way, particularly the twisty part of the handle?

oel
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby oel » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:06 am


Aguest
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Aguest » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:53 am

So it probably is a Cyrillic letter, I see the truth in it now. :::

Ubaranda
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Ubaranda » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:26 am

Hello!
This is not fake and this is not Iranian. I believe this is Batumi region in the Russian Empire.
According to the San-Stefan and Berlin peace treaties, part of the Lazistan sandjak of Turkey passed to the Russian Empire, from which on September 20, 1878 the Batumi region was formed, consisting of the port city of Batum (until 1886 - with the status of porto franco) and 3 districts: Batumi, Artvinsky and Adzhar. The coat of arms of the region was approved on June 17, 1881.
Unfortunately, maker КУ is not yet known to me.

Image

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:55 am

@Ubaranda
Excellent doing Ubaranda. How in the earth did you manage to locate it?
Interesting that there is no assayer's mark on it. It should carry one, but probably the spoon is a private order made by somebody.

Aguest
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Aguest » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:03 pm

::: Amazing, the dots are a complete match, thank you. :::

Dad
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Dad » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:13 pm

Hi

Maybe Batumi. But, i think, it 's amateur activity.
This kind of "84" did not exist in hallmarks of RI until 1899. But then there was already a others hallmarks.

Kirils
Posts: 115
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Re: Unknown city and maker

Postby Kirils » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:15 am

I agree. The dots does look like Batumi, But there is one question. Why does 84 mark look like Iranian?


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