24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
curious_mind
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24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby curious_mind » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:20 pm

Disclaimer: I can imagine this is a fake. It's hard to tell what the purse originally looked like as there has been much work done to it since it was crafted (it would appear). I can't say that it's a particularly beautiful piece, though again who knows what it once looked like. There are potentially Slavic signatures in gold and also anglicized names such as Howard, Mary and Dick which, I can imagine, were added later. It does test as silver and gold. The studs and/or holes might further indicate that work/repair was done.

Most interesting to me, an amateur to be sure, are the marks 24A, and what may be maker's marks that I cannot decipher which are on the tiny final links of the chain of the purse (please see the last 2 images for reference).

Can anyone shed light on these marks or origins of this purse beyond Moscow ca 1908-1927?

Many Thanks!

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curious_mind
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby curious_mind » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:22 pm

Update:

after re-examining the tiny marks and messing around with the contrast and clarity, I think what I'm seeing is another kokoshnik mark with the top half a '4', the bottom half of an '8', a heavily worn and tarnished face and a delta at the bottom. This piece of chain link is minuscule.

However, still perplexed with respect to the '24A.' pictured below. The '24A.' is stamped on both chain links closest to the purse and on the front and back of the purse itself.

Cheers!

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AG2012
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby AG2012 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:56 am

Hi,
I think it is perfectly genuine in spite of gaps in regard of documented artels after 1908 (Artels 22 23 25 28 29).
So called missing artels must have existed because there is no logic in skipping sequence when artels were registered.
``Artel 24 comes after artel 23, but let`s interrupt the sequence, assign number 25 and let`s leave 24 for the fakers in next century``

Regards`

Qrt.S
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:05 am

AG2012
AG2012 wrote:Hi,

``Artel 24 comes after artel 23, but let`s interrupt the sequence, assign number 25 and let`s leave 24 for the fakers in next century``


Sorry, but I don't quite catch you now. Is the purse according to you an object from the missing 24th artel or a fake and what has 25th to do with this???
Language problems...I believe...:-)))

By the way, there is still very little known about the Russian artels and there is no known explanation why the sequence is "broken".
Any information shedding more light on the artels' history would be much appreciated.
This is in general known about them:
http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionaryartelsMO.html

AG2012
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby AG2012 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:50 am

My fault for trying to be ironic.
Wanted to say that assay office clerks did not skip deliberately (on purpose) numbers 24 26 and 27 when they registered artels
Meaning,it is logical that ‚‚missing‚‚ artels did exist, because there was no logic in braking sequence of numbers assigned to artels.
This purse and its marks really look perfectly authentic.
But it is still a mystery why 24 26 and 27 cannot be found in literature.
Regards

Qrt.S
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:57 pm

OK, but there are more missing numbers than the above mentioned ones. See the link. Anyway, it would be quite sensational if this purse is made in a "missing" artel. I'm not fully convinced...yet! More evidences needed!
In addition, the numbers are not necessarily sequences numbers. We simply do not know what they represent.
An interesting case anyway.

curious_mind
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby curious_mind » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:16 pm

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
I think it is perfectly genuine in spite of gaps in regard of documented artels after 1908 (Artels 22 23 25 28 29).
So called missing artels must have existed because there is no logic in skipping sequence when artels were registered.


Hello! Thank you for the prompt response(s). The purse certainly is a glorious piece of craftsmanship; what can't be seen in the above photos is the "warmth" of the silver, the ultra smooth hinges on curved surfaces, the awesome clasp mechanism etc... whoever crafted it (and wouldn't I love to know who that was) clearly had skills. Moreover, the style is reminiscent of some art nouveau pieces from the 23rd artel, so the timeline seems to be correct? It is an intriguing piece.

Cheers!

AG2012
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby AG2012 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:20 am

Hello again,
Pay attention to the badge (logo) top left.
``GFS`` is most likely Girls Friendly Society,British charity organisation which helped repatriation of British girls working as governesses and tutors in Russia and lost their jobs at the outbreak of The Great War.
Rev W.Mensell Merry in his book ``What we did for the Russians`` tells:
``there were various agencies in the Russian capital that took a sympathetic interest in their well being, the Girls` Friendly Society sent a representative,when and where possible to meet the steamer on its arrival.the Princess Alice Home provided comfortable lodgings...and,he added,all and every is welcome to the flourishing Girls club, actually on the Church premisses.``

The logo is Art Nouveau (Стиль модерн Stil modern In Russian).
All said, the purse could be a gift to a prominent member of Girls Friendly Society who helped the girls in Russia at the time.
Regards

Aguest
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby Aguest » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:10 am

Tiny Chain Hallmark: The letter delta underneath the neck of the woman's head with the number "84" above did remind me of the Russian Import Mark of 1908-1917, but I know enough to know that I am out of my league here, there was a purse submitted by another member here which did have a "24 A" in an extremely similar font (the number "2" kind of looks like a swan), but it was commented that it was most probably British in origin, so maybe somehow there is a Russian/British relationship going on here ::

Would it be possible to see pics of the purse opened, such that the construction of the inside of the purse could be seen? Thanks for posting this.

AG2012
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby AG2012 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:13 am

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AG2012
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Re: 24A on Russian purse - the missing 24th artel?!

Postby AG2012 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:17 am

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