Morosov fork

[AG2012]

Somebody`s grand grand father who took part in Russian revolution stormed Imperial palace and nicked the napkin ring from Tsar`s dining table, then decades later he emigrated to America and the ring has been in the family ever since.
Alexander III is even more lucrative than Nicholas II.

[p_helm]

That cannot be answered simply. If in a shop I can pick it up and have a gut feel of it.

[p_helm]

There is no way of answering that honestly. I have to pick some pieces up to figure how they feel. Some you have to buy before someone else recognizes the mark of a rare piece.

[Qrt.S]

Let me put it this way. Those of us reading these sites and answering questions have no possibilities to "pick it up..."- The only thing we have is the photo. Based on that the answer is given. Now what is your gut feeling, what does the picture tell you? Buy or not? Try, I would be interested indeed in knowing your answer. I will then tell you mine.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I support AG2012´s version - my gut feeling tells me it is something one of a kind and he is spot on!
I am firmly convinced that Q.rts can not wait to explain what we see here, thanks to his immense knowledge of the Russian brands and signs.

Regards
Goldstein

[p_helm]

Qrt.S
I know almost nothing about Russian silver, which is why I am using this forum to ask questions and learn in the process. I get pieces from markets and junk shops.
I would though like to know about the piece that you are referring to.

[Aguest]

The member who posted the fork asked for some clarification: Is the monogram original? I too would like to know if the monogram is original or was it later added to increase the value somehow? The fork was "upgraded"/"upscaled" when the fake/forgery "MOROSOV" hallmark was overstamped upon the original maker's mark. We may never know who the original maker was.

[Goldstein]

Hi Aguest -

please read the different contributions and think about what is written! One can only write and explain - but reading and understanding is up to you!
In one of my contributions (re fakes) I wrote the following:

These spoons exist in their thousands, with simple or intricate, ornate monograms, even with various crowns. If a Faker "upgraded" a spoon with the logo of the company Morozov - he takes no plane or scratched spoon - he takes a well-kept spoon, if possible with a pretty monogram (and a crown). These spoons are even today for little money to get - with Morozov + AH, they are for much more money to sell! The entire material is 2 stamps that can be used over and over again. If you have understood it so far - here's the rest:
As mentioned before, the used spoon with the monogram is a 100% original - Kokoshnik is preserved - the rest of the marks are stamped with the wrong Morozov + AH: thus the selling price has multiplied!
All this you can read in the thread - next time read slowly and think fast!

Regards
Goldstein

[Aguest]

I failed to understand "(the monogram with crown is particularly suitable)" in the context of the sentence, I thought I remember seeing a post where the member asked if the monogram was original or not, but now I cannot locate that question :: I enjoy the monogram style from Russia and I have sometimes seen a similar style in Holland and Denmark as well ::: This particular fork has a sort of "royal cipher" type of monogram where the two sides of the monogram are symmetrical when bi-sected down the middle, I have seen this style in England, but I cannot recall seeing it on a Russian piece, that is why I find the monogram interesting ::::

[AG2012]

Genuine engraving and the crown of nobility, the lowest rank (bottom end) of aristocracy.
Commonly seen throughout Europe.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi Aguest -

here the different Russian crowns and their meaning. Text is in German - google for a translation in your language - and remember it for the future!



Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@p_helm
The story AG2012 presents is most likely the story told by the seller to a potential buyer not knowing anything about silver marks. All in order to sell to a fool. Secondly, it is not a napkin ring but a small cup. The marks are on the bottom. Anyway, the cup is ”genuine” and silver. It is not made in Russia, but who knows where, obviously in Europe. The marking is odd. GD is the maker’s mark and 14 the fineness mark expressed in loths (875/1000 i.e 84 zol.). Now the interesting part.The mark with 84/St. George/ПТ was long believed to be an unknown assayer’s mark in Moscow until it turned out that it actually was the first Russian import mark used 1882-1898. The initials ПТ is the abbreviation of ”Imported Goods” in Russian of course. So far so good, but the deceiving ”МОРОЗОВЪ” mark is added later. Morozov’s workshop was in St. Petersburg. It doesn’t make sense with the import mark.

Why it doesn’t that you have to figure out yourself. I would never have bought this cup.

About the engraving. It is Aleksandr III’s monogram or at least a similar to it, but anybody can engrave anything anytime on anything.

What do we learn from this? Yes this, Goldstein’s often presented rule: ”If you don’t know what you are buying, don’t buy it!”. Instead go home and learn the Russian making procedure.
End of story.

[Aguest]

The art of hand-engraving and bright-cut are almost extinct, so in the interest of determining authenticity I just wanted to know more about this subject :: I am sure there are examples of fake Russian objects with forged hand-engraved monograms, but I see much more faked solid silver, faked enamel on silver, and faked Russian hallmarks ::: The objects with hand-engraved monograms seem much more likely to be "up-scaled" but I realize each object must be analyzed on a case-by-case basis ::::: I think I take your point to be that the monogram isn't as important as the hallmarks and the various qualities of the object, and yes technically anyone at any time could add a monogram, but still this is a detail of Russian silver objects which I find interesting :::

It's getting very difficult to find an expert in hand-engraving :: There was one single expert in my area who all the jewelers used for hand-engraving, but he retired around 10 years ago, and the jewelers have been unable to find a local replacement for his artistry ::: I realize the big companies such as Tiffany and Patek Phillippe and Cartier probably do still have experts in hand-engraving, but the art is certainly dying out )

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

I knew that you would jump on the oppurtunity to present again your outstanding knowledge about Russian silver in general and world marks in particular!
Perhaps you have missed that AG 2012 has meant his contribution as a joke / satire - you can bet that he knows that napkin rings have no bottom .....

About the engraving. It is Aleksandr III’s monogram or at least a similar to it, but anybody can engrave anything anytime on anything.

Just note for your tremendous files: you call that not a "monogram" but a cypher! Professionals should know that.
Here some examples - left: cipher, right: monogram



And for your photocollection: another faked/overstrucked spoon with the notorius A.H.





Maybe you can show us an original, authentic Morozov spoon with the maker A.H? Just look in your files...

Regards
Goldstein

[p_helm]

I myself bought this fork at a market, and it certainly was not expensive, so no gain for a fake market.
I do not see myself as a fool as I bought a piece that interested me. I liked it and bought it because I like it, not because of any hallmarks. It was only after did some research and saw the Morozov mark as maybe meaning something.
I was just wanting opinions of others, whether it was a Morozov piece or not and got conflicting information here.
If there are a large amount of similar fakes going around it would be useful to have photos of these fake hallmarks posted for the education of less informed
regards
p_helm

[Goldstein]

Hi p_helm -

I myself bought this fork at a market, and it certainly was not expensive, so no gain for a fake market.
I do not see myself as a fool as I bought a piece that interested me. I liked it and bought it because I like it, not because of any hallmarks. It was only after did some research and saw the Morozov mark as maybe meaning something.

You are the typical fake customer - no idea of anything.
You got what you deserve.
And you supported the business of the fakers with your money.

So everybody is happy....

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Hi Qrt.S -

Just note for your tremendous files: you call that not a "monogram" but a cypher! Professionals should know that.
Here some examples - left: cipher, right: monogram

Regards
Goldstein

Do not start to teach again!. What if you took a look in a Thesaurus or Dictionary to find out what a cipher is.
FYI!
A cipher is usually a numeric character, often a code, but also used as a synonym to monogram. A monogram is a character or cipher composed of one, two or more letters some times forming an intertwined initial(s) of a name. Anyone somehow familiar with the English language ought to know that.
The experts of experts are usually called "Besserwissers". In addition, there is a common saying; A "home expert" i.e. dilettante usually knows more than ten so called "experts"!
Nothing more to add in regarding this case.

[Goldstein]

Hi "Besserwisser" -

the word "cipher" or "chiffre " is used when a devoured monogram in connection with a crown is used, you have to decipher it.
The noun cipher refers to a numeral or number. On the other hand, a cipher can also be a secret character, a sign of a secret code or a code number.

Chiffre (numeral) comes from the French.




Cipher is the English word for chiffre .

You should use it in the future or ignore it as always when you can not follow.

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Reread what I write and don't waflle

[Qrt.S]

Forgot to tell that the word "cipher" relates to Latin not French! Check what the Latin word is and you be surprised.
Pseudonyme:
"Studied Latin for 7 years"