Russian silver salt cellar

[antiquv]

hello
I have this salt cellar and I can't find the marks on it , it has a kokoshnik mark of Moscow and the item itself is very massive and well
made
any help will be appreciated

[Goldstein]

Hi antiquv -

one of the many notorious fakes "attributed" to Wäkeva Stephan - one of Fabrgé´s masters.
Wrong marks - wrong dates - wrong quality - wrong object!

See PL p.199 #1860-6!

Regards
Goldstein

[antiquv]

thank you for the id of the artist, this piece is 100% real and I know where it came from, Wäkeva Stephan worked until his death in 1910 and then he was continued by his sun and daughter , it is probably one of his late works done in the pan slavic style that faberge used in this years between 1908-1917 as the kokoshnik mark says , the piece is marked twice, the other mark is on the upper part .

thank you very much for helping me to find the artist

[Goldstein]

Hi antiquv -

[quote="antiquv"] this piece is 100% real and I know where it came from,[/quote .........but you do not know who the maker is! What a nonsense!
By the way - the S. Wäkeva marks are always in an oval cartouche! Compare with your object !
Here some illustrations from leading textbooks...




Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

I'm afraid that Goldstein is absolutely right in what he is stating. Moreover, the quality is not good enough for it being made by Stefan Wäkevä. It is a rather ordinary salt cellar. In addition, as already said, the maker's mark does not correspond to the marks used by Wäkevä. Please also note that Wäkevä was located in St Petersburg and the kokshniks shows a delta for Moscow. Is the object a fake or not, is another question. In my eyes it is not a fake but definitely not made by Stefan Wäkevä irrespective of carrying the mark SW. Actually with some imagination, the mark could as well show MS.

As to Wäkevä's daughter Olga, she was only married to the well known master Adam Herttuainen who worked for Morozow and has nothing to do with Wäkevä's workshop. Wäkevä had 10 childrens and of them only the youngest sons Konstantin and Alexander continued the business as goldsmiths.

[AG2012]

Hi,
The same faked mark on Zaire malachite silver lizard fraudulently attributed to Wäkevä for Faberge.

[Qrt.S]

@AG2012
Interesting, could you show close ups of the marks, thank you? What do you think, is the mark SW or MS?

@antiquv
I forgot to mention that your salt cellar's style is not even close to panslavistic. It is more like jugend....

[Goldstein]

Hi -

there are no limits - kovsh made by "Jenny Wäkeva"......and a really good Fauxbergé punch - made with shaky hands.





Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

"SW"

Zu erkennen: 84 oder 88 zolotniki, rechts neben der Beschaumarke längliche Wortmarke, eventuell Faberge´ in kyrillischen Großbuchstaben. Meisterpunze "SW", wohl für Stefan Wäkeva.

[Qrt.S]

@AG2012
It is already proved that Stefan Wäkevä is not the maker, therefore I believe that the possibilities of the mark being MS is 50/50. Pay attention to the look of the "S" . It is more logical that the mark should be this way but "somebody" has seen his chance to deceive and turned the mark upside-down.

[Qrt.S]

For the records some historical background. Stefan Wäkevä's original name is written "Väkevä" and not with double V (W). The simple reason why Stefan changed V to W was that the Finnish speaking population in St. Petersburg was registered (written) in the local German parish register. As very well known, V in German is pronounced F and Stefan didn't accept that his name wold be pronounced Fäkevä. Therefore the "Anfang" letter V was changed to W. Still today Stefan's contemporary family live close to the Finnish eastern border in the village of Väkevälä (with simple V).

@Goldstein
The kovsh is not the case here, but for your records, it is authentic without any doubts. The marks are correct and the scratched number 9728 has been back traced to existing stock register books from Fabergé's workshop. It shows that it is made in Jenny Wäkevä's workshop in late 1902 or early 1903. There is nothing peculiar with the "widow's punch" J.W.. Konstantin, Jenny's husband, died in 1902 and Jenny got the right to use a mark of her own i.e. J.W. There are other objects known marked J.W. This "widow's punch" was also used by the widows to e.g. Kollin, Ringe, Thielemann...Nothing "new" regarding this case.

As stated many times before, everything is not faked even if a lot of "Russian" silver is...unfortunately.

[AG2012]

Agree with Qrt.S in regard of art nouveau (Jugendstil) salt cellar being authentic, but unknown maker ``MS`` upside down interpreted as more lucrative Wäkevä.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

@Goldstein
The kovsh is not the case here, but for your records, it is authentic without any doubts. The marks are correct and the scratched number 9728 has been back traced to existing stock register books from Fabergé's workshop.

Please show your source! Fabergé scratch inventory marks are always 5 (five) digits - not 4 (four)!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Examples of four digit inventory numbers.

1.Table Portrait, Workmaster Henrik Wigström, St. Petersburg; miniature by Vasilii Zuev, 1909
Workmaster's initials and Fabergé in Cyrillic, also with scratched inventory number 2194, the miniature with a cardboard backing numbered '319'
(Courtesy Sotheby`s)


2.Presentation Snuff Box before 1896, Workmaster: August Holmström
Scratched Stock no. 1067 (Cost 1,300 rubles, $970 at the Time, $28,992 in 2017)
(Courtesy Forbes Magazine Collection)

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
I'm astonished! Where from have you got the impression that the scratched numbers are five digits only? AG2012 just proved it to be wrong. In addition, what if you for once would rely on written information i.e. books. Buy Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm's latest book Fabergé and his masters and read it slowly and with care. Last Summer I told the forum about this book.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=51115&p=158048&hilit=Faberg%C3%A9+and+his+masters#p158048 I already mentioned the other source; Fabergé's stock registers. Unfortunately not available for the public.

Moreover, it is claimed that Fabergé punched "FABERGÉ" on objects made in St. Petersburg and "K. FABERGÉ" for objects made in Moscow. That is not the whole truth. Some products made in St. Petersburg but meant for the Moscow market were punched abnormally with the the Moscow punch "K. FABERGÈ". Those objects were made by Nevalainen, Rappoport, ICA and in the Väkevä family's workshop. Kollin, Nykänen and Pihl punched their maker's mark without Fabergé's mark. Michelson punched with or without Fabergé's mark.

The above mentioned procedure was developed due to the demand of the buying customers in Moscow. They wanted to have their "sign" on the objects they bought from Fabergé's shop in Moscow.

And don't ask for the source again. It is mentioned above.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

you mention a source which is not public available. Bravo! There are other books you can buy:




All full with copies of files, invoices and inventar book pages - all with 5 digit numbers!

Examples of four digit inventory numbers.

Without photos of the object and the marks an estimation is not possible.

By the way: for me are diskussions about fakes senseless. Believe what you want. I only share my opinion and do not care if you believe in books nobody can buy or auction houses, which in the past were involved several times in proven counterfeiting / frauds.

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Yes, there are a lot of books available on the market. Many of them are completely worthless due to the fact that they contain incorrect, misleading and even faulty information. Some of them poor copies of copied copies. Is there by the way anything, anything in the world that you believe in other than your own opinions. Unfortunately also many times based on nothing more than on your own opinion? Such an opinion is worthless. There is a lot of information not available to the public but only to researchers, historians and authorized persons, so what is the problem. Some have access to the information, some don't. Sorry if you don't have an access. Nevertheless, you can always ask me. Sometimes I know the answers but some times I don't. It is worth a try anyway ;-))))))))

[Aguest]

Additional thought about this object: Why does there seem to be a faint outline of an "S" above the actually punched letter "S" ? Is that my imagination?

[Goldstein]

Hi Aguest -

it is not your imagination - it is real! The fakers needed more than one try to punch the mark - but were too lazy to correct the error completely.



But do not worry - our "experts" think/know it is authentic....

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

???? So our expert of experts deems a bad punch to proof that the object is a fake? That is a completely ridiculous statement.