Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

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925John
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Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby 925John » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:28 pm

Thank you for ID these cup marks.

John

Image
Image

Goldstein
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Goldstein » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi 925John -

It is not C45 but CЧ5!

Image

Regards
Goldstein

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi,
Soviet (USSR) Leningrad before 1965.
Try to take sharper image of the mark in the middle to help identifying the firm in Leningrad.
Regards

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:14 pm

Goldstein has identified the maker CЧ5.
It`s a factory in Veliky Ustyug.Still in business:
http://www.sevchern.ru/
Regards

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:45 am

The factory's name "Фабрика Северная Чернь" means "Factory Northern Caucasus". The cups are made exactly in 1965. The number 5 in the mark tells us that. The Greek alpha in the hallmark stands for "Leningrad's inspectorate" (Don't ask me why Leningrad!).

By the way:
I have a modest wish for everyone asking questions here regarding object's and their marks. Please, wash, clean, especially the marks, and polish the object in question before taking the pictures! I feel really bad looking at "dirty" cups like the ones here and objects in many other threads. Silver shall shine like the full moon in August!

I hope it is not too much to ask for.
Thank you in advance

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:58 am

Sorry, sorry, I was disturbed, the name of the factory is of course "Northern BLACK"

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:39 am

Чернь is a synonym for ниелло (niello). Basic definition of the word is black.
Artel was founded in 1933, changed the name to factory in 1961.
Regards

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:48 am

@AG2012
Thanks, didn't know that. However, mind my asking: "Artel" founded in 1933"??? What artel might that be, never heard of it and I am quite familiar with the former artels' backgrounds and history? The artels' story ended not later than in 1917, so?

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:34 am

В 1933 году в Великом Устюге М. П. Чирковым основывается артель «Северная чернь».


In 1933, in Veliki Ustyug, M.P. Chirkov founded the "Severnaya Chern" artel.

In 1930s the soviet government extended the term Артель even to peasant Kolhoz associations (what an irony, like they really volunteered when joining).
сельскохозяйственные артели (agricultural artels).

«Северная чернь» won silver medal at Paris World exhibition 1937.

Image

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:39 am

AG2012
OK, thanks, but "artel" and "ARTEL"......this has, anyway, nothing to do do with the original Russian artels.

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:07 am

Right, nothing to do with Imperial era artels, just loosely applied term for ``free association of professionals`` dating back to middle ages, and certainly it was not a free association after the revolution.
Similar to die Gilde (Kaufleute).

925John
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby 925John » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:09 am

Thank you for the replies.

For a better look at the marks, you can right click the picture, and select open in new browser, to see full size.

Dad
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Dad » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:55 am

Qrt.S wrote:The factory's name "Фабрика Северная Чернь" means "Factory Northern Caucasus". The cups are made exactly in 1965. The number 5 in the mark tells us that. The Greek alpha in the hallmark stands for "Leningrad's inspectorate" (Don't ask me why Leningrad.
Thank you in advance



No no no !!! )))

1955 !! Artel “Severnaja Chern”

After 1958 hallmarks were changed

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:58 am

@Dad
Please read all inputs. I made a mistake but I corrected it. See below
Qrt.S wrote:Sorry, sorry, I was disturbed, the name of the factory is of course "Northern BLACK"


According to Troepolskaja #20095 on page 638 and what Goldstein also wrote the year is 1965. What is the source for the year 1955? By the way, this СЧ5 is not a hallmark it is a maker's mark. A hallmark is the official punch like the kokoshniks, five star etc...

AG2012
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby AG2012 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:18 am

Hello again,
I suppose Dad was referring to Soviet mark star - sickle - hammer ( КЛЕЙМА ЗВЕЗДА СЕРП И МОЛОТ) introduced in 1958.
Beakers shown here have older mark (worker`s head and hammer and Greek letter).
Meaning, beakers had to be made before 1958.
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Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:57 am

Hmmm, quite right AG 2012. That means that there is an error in Troepolskaja. On page 638 #20089 you can read that "Severnaya Chern" use the punch СЧ 1933-1940. The next punch it used is СЧ0 in 1960......СЧ8 for 1968. There are no marks mentioned between 1941-1959. But then again you have the worker's head hallmark with a sledgehammer on the cups. It was used 1927-1958. Something is not in place here...is it really СЧ5 or something else?

Dad
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Dad » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:02 pm

Qrt.S,

You live many years. I think you saw very much. ))
Each source consists of 2 parts:
1) autor self researches
2) borrowed from earlier sources.

There are earlier data:

Image

Image

But the most important:

"The worker in a cap with the hammer" was only before 1958.

Qrt.S
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:00 am

@Dad
Well, I already stated that something is not in place here. We have an "artel" СЧ0 for 1960 and СЧ8 for 1968. In addition, a "fabrika" СЧ1-СЧ7 for 1961-1967. We also have СЧ (only two characters!) for 1933-1940. But where from is 1955? Undoubtedly the worker's head was used 1927->13.7.1959, so? What should be corrected on the lists?

Kindly tell me what is the source for your extract?

Goldstein
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Re: Pair of cups from St. Petersburg I believe

Postby Goldstein » Tue May 01, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi -

here the "quality" niello from the firm still known until today...and a updated punch...

Image
Image
Image
Image

Regards
Goldstein


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