St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
robert12
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St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby robert12 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:15 pm

Hi, information needed please on this teaspoon.
Assay master appears to be Dimitry Ilyich Tverskoy in the Russian Silver Marks section, dated St Petersburg 1846
Possibly 2 maker marks of maybe IFF and N&P, perhaps one is the retailer ?
Thanks in advance.
Robert
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Goldstein
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Goldstein » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:33 pm

Hi robert12 -

IFF is the maker (Falck, Johan Fredrik 1799-1838)
N&P is the seller (Nikol, Karl and Plinke, 1829-1898) a rather famous firm

source: PL, # 1708 and # 1811-1814

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:37 pm

N&P is Nicols & Plinke a very famous company in St. Petersburg. The maker IFF is a Finn i.e. Johan Fredrik Falck (1838-1845) born in Sveaborg (a naval fortress outside Helsinki) 1799. He came 1815 to St. Petersburg and became journeyman 1819 and master 1838. He worked some time for Nicols & Plinke. He past away in March 2. 1845.

I don't think the year is 1846 more likely 1838 because Falck died 1845.

Goldstein
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Goldstein » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:38 pm

Hi -
Correction:
date for Falck : 1799-1847 !

Regards
Goldstein

robert12
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby robert12 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:51 pm

It is great to have both the seller and retailer attributed.
Thanks to you both for the quick response.

Robert

Qrt.S
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm

Hmmm... one more comment. It is interesting that in Postnikova is stated that he was born (родился) 1799 and died (умер) 1845 but in the end is stated in brackets (ПОДСВЕЧНИК (candlestick) 1847!?). My other sources claim that he died 1845, but....? Maybe the candlestick was assayed after his death, who knows...

Goldstein
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Goldstein » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:59 pm

Hi -

the easiest way is to name your sources. Than it is possible to decide which one is more reliable. At least professionals do it like that....

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:53 am

@Goldstein
There is a saying that sometimes one dilettante knows more than a dozen experts calling themselves professionals. I have never claimed to be an "expert" whatsoever. Anyway, in Postnikova's book is stated: "(ум. 1845 г.)", which is an abbreviation of "умер 1845 год" meaning in English "died year 1845". The exact date is missing.
The date March 2. 1845 is taken from Leonard Bäcksbackas book "St. Petersburgs juvelerare, guld- och silversmeder 1714-1870", published in Helsinki 1951. A good but expensive book and difficult to find.(I offered you to buy an example years ago)

Bäcksbacka has found the exact date and year of Falck's death. He hardly picked it from the sky! Since both Postnikova and Bäcksbacka mention the same year, it is a rather good evidence that Falck died 2.3.1845. The year 1847 Postnikova mentions on the candlestick located in The State Historical Museum in Moscow is either an error (there are errors in Postnikova) or the candlestick is assayed by Falck's successor(s).

Goldstein
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Goldstein » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:52 am

Hi -

as a dilettante my next step would be to check the real date of Falck´s death - he is a Finn - you are a Finn - nothing is easier than checking the death dates on the spot. Then we could find out which author was right or if there are new findings - and clarify the seemingly questionable assay date of 1846.
Recherche works like that!
Thanks for naming your source!
I understand that you favour a Finn author - I am more interested on verifiable facts - no matter from whom (nationality) they come!
There is so much in the dark....

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:52 pm

I don't favour anyone. Obviously you have no idea of who Leonard Bäcksbacka is. By the way, there is nothing to prohibit you from checking Falck's date of death. I don't need to. Bäcksbacka's statement is enough convincing. Moreover, iIrrespective of Falck being a Finn, he died i Russia not in Finland. That makes it a bit complicated or what do you think?

Goldstein
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Re: St Petersburg maker needed please IFF, N&P marks

Postby Goldstein » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:49 pm

Hi -

Image

As a collector, I am primarily interested in original pieces from the respective time or maker. If all brands or punches are authentic (as in the example above) but do not match the data and rules in various books, then there are only two plausible explanations: either the textbooks (data) are wrong or there were exceptions / changes / sloppiness of which we have no knowledge.
For that reason, textbooks are not a gospel to me - just one of several ways to get closer to the truth. The silver in front of me on the table speaks its own language - provided it is authentic.


Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: Maker's mark?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:01 pm

Generally speaking I agree with Goldstein. However, it is more seldom quite that simple. In some cases it is very well known when a master was born, became master and died etc.. But that is not always the case. There are master whose dates and/or working periods, sometimes even their locations are not known with certainty. In those cases their working periods etc. are "assumed/defined" based on the year marks on objects found and made by them.

In this particular case Bäcksbacka presents not only the year bot also the day and month Falck passed away i.e. March 2. 1845. He must have found it from some source. Postnikova presents the same year. I would rather not question the mentioned year. Even more questionable is to refer to the very unclear mark in this thread. Its year mark could be whatever. One cant even guess what the third figure might be. Regarding the fourth figure it is easier to guess what it is not. That would be 1, 2, 4, 7, 9 or 0. What is left is 3, 5, 6 and 8. But without even blinking claiming that the year is 1846 is making a hasty conclusion. Falck died March 2. 1845.

Nonetheless, sometimes there is also the possibility that the maker's mark doesn't belong to the assumed master. This is not the case here.


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