Grachev

[Goldstein]

Hi -

some more, same pattern marked Khlebnikov in full script and some only marked with initials:






Now I am confused...

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Since the discussion is back on track again, I'd like to clarify the imperial Russia's import/export procedures. Parts of it has already been explained earlier but in order to avoid further misunderstandings, I try to summarize it below:

The first Russian export mark was implemented not earlier than in 1908. That is the crossed right looking kokoshnik shown in earlier inputs here. Before 1908 there were no export marks whatsoever. Exported objects carry ordinary (domestic) marks. Sometimes the importer abroad punched his own mark on the object. This was usually the logo/trade mark of the importing company. This is how a from Russia exported object can be identified. Be, anyway, aware that if the kokshnik is not crossed the object is imported to Russia and the non-Russian mark is the maker's-, manufacturer's mark. In addition, the Russian taste and style did not particularly please the western Europe, it did not in all cases "sell" well. Therefore the Russian export was rather limited. Russian export marks are not often seen for the aforementioned reasons.

The crossed kokoshnik means that half the duty is refunded because of the export.

For the records, if there are two crossed kokshniks, usually a bigger and smaller, it means that an earlier exported object is taken back to Russia. The two crossed kokshniks mean that the duty is repaid when "imported". If you can call it "import" at all.

The first Russian import mark is the ПТ mark (seen in this thread earlier) standing for ПРИВОЗНЫХ ТОВАРОВ i.e imported goods. This mark was used 1882-1898/99. The reason for introducing this mark was that earlier imported goods could carry only a Russian hallmark. The customs brought imported silver to the assaying office for fineness control (min. 84 zol. /875/1000). If the fineness fulfilled the legal requirements it was hallmarked. If you see objects with Russian hallmarks only, they are imported without any exception (well one: fake!) to Russia. However, scruples individuals (including some goldsmiths) took advantage of this hallmarked but lack of maker's mark object and punched their own "mark" on it. The mark could be a registered maker's mark, trade mark/logo, whatever mark and sold it as a Russian made object. In the eyes of ordinary people it looked OK and it was, but not Russian made! The separate such an imported object from a Russian made object is a long haul.

Now a question is hanging in the air. Why didn't the object carry the marks of of a maker abroad? The answer is as already stated that it did or didn't....!? The answer to this again is that the Russians imported quite a lot from western Europe and especially Germany during the latter part of 19th century. It was allowed to import unmarked silver goods with the minimum fineness of 84 zol.. The (scruples) importer ordered unmarked silver from Germany and in some cases gave the (Russian) pattern he wanted to have on e.g. cutlery, tableware etc. I already told you what the scruples importer did. That was one of the reasons why the import mark was implemented.

In 1899 an new import mark was issued. This is the left looking kokshnik with its lower end flattened. All well until 1908 when a new import mark was introduced. It looks almost similar to the previous one except for that the kokshnik is looking to the right. It was officially used to 1926 but in reality to 1917 only.

Then comes the Soviet Union from 1924 and new Russia 1992 with their marks, but that is another story...

Hopefully it has become clear what is Russian made and what is exported/imported.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

What do you want to say? We all have books where we can read about import/export laws. You tell nothing new. The rules are clear. That is the theory.
Next step: implementation. Show us real photos of real silver with real marks from the different years where the different laws for the different years are executed. Please no copied book pages.

But that is/was not the theme here. I know it is wasted time but I try again:



The shown spoon pattern seems to be a Khlebnikov pattern - at least I never have seen it made by someone else in Russia, Germany or elsewhere.
How comes that it showed up in Romania without Russian export marks, Khlebnikov maker´s marks - but with the "standing bear" mark?

The theme here is: what is the purpose of this mark? Who put it on the silver and why? Is my explained theory right? Is there an other explanation?

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

Hi Qrt.S -

What do you want to say? We all have books where we can read about import/export laws.

Well if you have books why don't you read them? Only in this thread I have had to correct you at least twice because the information you gave was incorrect and not from any reliable source. Below one example:

An export mark since 1992 ??? Complete nonsense!


If you don't know, better to stay quiet. I wanted to explain what marks, how and when they were used regarding export/import. Your mark above doesn't belong to the series. Show me what is wrong in my explanation.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

instead of becoming insulting if you do not understand something - ask! There are many things you do not know. I learn every day something new.
Leave your books and go out in the world. Theory and praxis are two separate things. Try to find things you always speak of but never have seen in real. Stop to copy and paste everything discovered by others - form your own opinion that you can discuss with others in a friendly way.

The discussed mark:

this is not a random scratch but made aware to invalidate the original stamp together with the new stamp of the new country!

Further examples:
Russian napkinring imported to France. Originalmarks destroyed. French importmark



and for your better understanding - use Google translator


Russian spoon imported to Belgium




this is not a random scratch but made aware to invalidate the original stamp together with the new stamp of the new country!

If you need more examples - let me know!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I am sorry that the threat is a little bit out of order. Maybe admin can help bringing this contribution in the right direction. Thanks!

About the "standing bear" on Swiss pocket watches in silver.
As we know already the movement was Swiss made, the watch case was made by many suppliers. The watch cases intended for the Russian market had to be of silver 875/1000. All others were of silver 800/1000.
Here an example from the famous St. Petersburg watchmaker/seller Pavel Bure (he sold the finished watches from Switzerland under his name), where you can see the silvercontent 875/1000 for the Russian market a n d the standing bear mark for the necessary silver content.
This mark was used by all distributors who supplied silver wares to Russia. See the shown examples.




Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -
one more. By the way - Pavel Bure was a Court supplier of the Tsar and delivered the (Swiss made!!) watch movements for the Fabergé watches.



Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -

here an example which supports my thesis of the "running bear" for otherwise "markless" export silver from probably Germany or other European countries. The import mark is from Riga under Russian rule. Most if not all silver export to Russia was done via Riga.






Regards
Goldstein