Russian bowl with handle 1857

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
silverfan
contributor
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: munich

Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby silverfan » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:02 pm

A few days ago I found this nice dish which has Russian marks (diameter 12cm, height 5cm, with handle 13cm, weight 300 g). I recognize the town mark of Moscow, but who is the maker and the assayer.
Regards silverfan

Image

Image

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:23 am

Nice bowl you have found. The assayer is Viktor Vasilyevitch Savinsky, active in Moscow 1856-1894. The maker I believe is Ignatij Pavlovitch Sazikov, born 1793 and dead 1868, active in St. Petersburg around 1846-1856 and Moscow 1856-1868. He punched И.С.. Use the search function with "Sazikov" and you will find more information about this famous company.

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:19 am

Hi silverfan -

a in Russian silver not often seen gadrooned object plus the ball feet.The Gothic monogram points to an Baltic or European owner.
Cogratulations! Authentic objects from Sazikov are not often seen on the forum.
To better understand who is who from "The Sazikovs" here a short overview:

The Sazikovs
Moscow/St. Petersburg jewelry firm. The title of "Court Manufacturer" of silver items was granted to Ignati Pawlowitsch Sazikov by Emperor Nicholas I. in 1837. Shops and factories of the firm existed until the beginning of 1887, then they were acquired by Khlebnikov (also a famous firm!). The Moscow factory was founded by Pavel Sazikov, a skillful engraver, in 1793. His business was continued by his son Ignati Pavlowitsch (1793-1868), grandsons Valentin Ignatjwitsch (1830-1877), Pavel Ignatjewitsch (1815-1856); widow of Valentin Ignatjewitsch - Valentina Pavlowna and her son Pavel Valentinowitsch (born in 1860). Ignati Pavlowitsch traded in St. Petersburg since 1846. St. Petersburg factory was situated variously in Millionnaya St., in Kasanskaja St. and then in Znamenskaja St., the shop in 1870-1880 in 29 B Morskaja St. The firm was one of the best in Russia, received many awards (including the Grand Prix of the Moscow Exhibition 1882, the "State Emblem"), co-operated with designers and sculptors, also used foreign technology and foreign jewelry equipment ( the first machine for guilloché was importe from France in 1843). In 1850 Pavel Ignatjewitsch Sazikov received the title of "Junior Artist". According to the data of 1881 volumes of output were in the Moscow factory: 58 poods (1 pood = 16.38 kilogram) of silver, 127 thousand rubles, 44 workers. In the St. Petersburg factory: 67 poods of church - and table silver, 39 thousand rubles, 74 workers.

Regards
Goldstein

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Dad » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:53 am

Hi.

I am not sure that it is Sazikov. Usually Sazikov punched big makermark (with an eagle). Like this:


Image

Image


The short mark was used as minor.

We will find more than 20 silversmiths from Moscow with initials "И.С." in the book by Ivanov. For example:


Image

Image

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:14 am

@Dad,

Sorry, but there are only 3 known masters marking И.С. at that time in Moscow; Sazikow, Stepanov and your mentioned Sytov. Please note the the difference between И.С. (note the dots!) and ИС (note no dots!). Both Systov and Stepanov are null factors only mentioned in 1852. Therefore I still believe in Sazikov for the good quality irrespective of the "missing" court supplier mark. In Voldaeva's book it is stated that Ignati's mark can appear with or also without the court supplier mark. You yourself also state "usually...", which is correct meaning "not always!".

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Dad » Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:06 pm

Qrt.S wrote:@Dad,

Please note the the difference between И.С. (note the dots!) and ИС (note no dots!). ..... In Voldaeva's book it is stated that Ignati's mark can appear with or also without the court supplier mark. You yourself also state "usually...", which is correct meaning "not always!".


Ok.
Please.
Show Sazikov's short mark (ИС) from large item (whithout full name mark). Show Sazikov's short mark of this period. Any examples.

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Show me the the more than 20 И.С. marks you referred to. I gave you the source; Voldaeva and in addition, Ivanov.

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:37 pm

Hi Dad -
maybe some words from an old man as a start:
If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless posts and threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

Please note that the vessel is only 12 (!) cm in diameter. Did you see the outstanding quality and crafty skills? Do you think one of the named nonames could produce an object like that?

Here 2 products of this "artists":
Image
Image
Image
Or is this also Sazikov quality?
Just for the knowing: all this typical European Coffee-and tea sets in the countless auctions (all in mint codition...after over 170 years...), of course all with the Court supplier eagle - are all authentic. Please think! Motto: no eagle - no Sazikov! You should know who buys all this fakes - coincidentally they mostly speak Russsian...just as a Russian you should keep your house clean!

Regards
Goldstein

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:05 am

Hi Dad -

Sazikov became court jeweler because his products were of excellent quality. Please just compare the two photos.

"Normal" or standard cream and sugar set in a better finish and usual quality by an average silversmith:
Image
one more:
Image
Sugar bowl in outstanding quality made by someone who knows all the processing capabilities of a top silversmith:
Image
The brand points to a significant silversmith - but because the eagle of the Court maker is missing - it can only be one of several nonames - no way that it is Sazikov!

Some days ago someone posted this ugly, unpretentious, heavyly worn spoon. Your opinion: maker Sazikov, authentic (because there is an Court maker eagle).
The spoon is a caricature, the marks are ludicrous (but there is an Court maker eagle).
Image
Image
Image
Image

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:18 am

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dad -
Motto: no eagle - no Sazikov!
Regards
Goldstein


I'm afraid that the motto above is not fully correct. I have referred to Voldaeva's book where is listed marks used by Sazikov. The company was founded 1793 and was not immediately appointed as a court supplier. Therefore and for other for me unknown reasons there are maker's marks (initials) punched without the eagle among those ПС, ИС and СС with or without dots. However, the full names САЗИКОВЪ and САЗИКОВА are always connected with the eagle mark.

Nevertheless, it is an unreasonable "demand" to always claim for sources or show marks. In many cases that could be an endless list and sometimes not even possible to show because there are many sources. Moreover, this is not a court of law where proofs must be shown. No crime has been committed here! The statements/answers on these sites are anticipated to be trusted by the readers because they are gained by years of experience. I have said this before and I say it again. I'm not going to present proofs, source etc.in the future every time I state something. It is up tho the reader to trust or oppose against the made statement that it is false/incorrect etc. because of......

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:32 am

Hi -
In the whole world, a claim that can not be proved is invalid.
A false information is not corrected by permanent repetitions.
Primary, reliable sources are essential.
That are the simple rules.
I just can repeat: undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and informatinon.
Somtimes it is better to admit ones cluelessness than inventing cryptic stories of "..I know but do not tell.
No matter how is argued - it is crucial that there is no satisfactory solution. The evidence is completly missing!
Many words - no result.
It is as simple like that!

Regards
Goldstein

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:32 am

Goldstein wrote:The brand points to a significant silversmith - but because the eagle of the Court maker is missing - it can only be one of several nonames - no way that it is Sazikov!

Regards
Goldstein


Just to stress on what I said and prove what kind of difficulties one can run into:

Now Goldstein, you made the above statement, how do you intend to prove it? As I see it your statement is only your opinion, one among many other possibly differing opinions, so prove it that is not Sazikov by referring to....what? You cannot do it even if you might be right and that is the actual problem with the claims of "what is the source, show some evidence, who said that, where, when.... etc. etc....Factum est, unless you are able to refute the claim, just trust in it!

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Dad » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:36 am

Hi, dear contributers.

I ask to forgive for my English. Also I ask not to take offense if sharply I speak.

Now, one after another:

There are no indisputable proofs that it is a product of factory of Sazikov. On the contrary. There are facts indicating the other. As that:
During this period (and in others) Sazikov punched the fullname mark with an eagle, if there was a place. He punched short mark (initials) to minor parts of products . I won't list all Moscow smiths from the book by Ivanov. There is a lot of them (on the last pages there is an index). I have asked to show examples because didn't meet the proved large products of Sazikov only with short marks. And the short mark (punched together with full-name mark) differs from shown above.

Therefore I wouldn't begin to claim that it is Sazikov.

Goldstein. Correct spoon. Sazikov. But now it is not a spoon, but a piece of silver , not more …
If to strike Fabergé's egg with the hammer, it will stop being Fabergé's egg? ))

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:44 am

Hi -
we should not try to solve your personal problems - I think that is in no way possible.
We should solve the problem of OP silverfan: who is the maker?
I told all I know (incl. photos, assessment and bio) - all things I can proof black on white.
So what?

Regards
Goldstein

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 am

Hi Dad -
as you know, even if we have sometimes different opinions of the same aspect, I appreciate your opinion very much!
Question: if you firmly and definitly know that it is not Sazikov - who else from the many other more or less unknown ИC´s around (I showed objects of two of them - very inferior!) was able to produce such a high quality product that OP silverfan showed to us? This could not be the only object which survived - there must be many others - contributed to a certain maker. To whom?
You know who is it not but you do not know who is it.....

Regards
Goldstein

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Dad » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:59 pm

Goldstein wrote:.....
Here 2 products of this "artists":
Image
Image
Image
Or is this also Sazikov quality?
......



Sazikov's firm existed only till 1887. Therefore your first item (after 1899) not Sazikov.

The second item is made perhaps by Ivan Saltykov's factory :

Image

Image

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 1248
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Goldstein » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:59 pm

Hi Dad -
thanks for your efforts - but I was just joking!

Regards
Goldstein

silverfan
contributor
Posts: 539
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: munich

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby silverfan » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:21 pm

Thanks Qrt.S, Goldstein and Dad for your Input.
I see the question is difficult.
@Dad: You stated: "And the short mark (punched together with full-name mark) differs from shown above". I never saw a short mark (initial mark) punched together with a full-name mark (what would mean two maker's marks). It would be interesting to see how the short mark in connection with the full-name mark differs from the short mark on my bowl.
Regards silverfan

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Dad » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:34 pm

silverfan wrote:... It would be interesting to see how the short mark in connection with the full-name mark differs from the short mark on my bowl.
...


Silverfan.

In the Russian silver, I am never confident that I has correctly determined the producer by initials if I use only the reference book of marks.
Unfortunately, prints of silversmiths punches on the copper (wax and etc) plates haven't remained in assay offices. All lists of the Russian silversmiths which are available at the moment have no pictures of their punches. Definition of the most of silversmith happens in the empirical way: mark, quality of work, etc.
I don't exclude Sazikov, but to claim that it he - wouldn't become.
There are examples which I have found. Moscow, near this period. Couples of punches - from a tea service (a bottom + a cover). Separate from a set of tableware.

Maybe Qrt'S will show examples from the book by Voldayeva?


Image

Image

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Russian bowl with handle 1857

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:30 am

If I had Voldaeva's book I would be happy to show pictures from it. The truth is, however, that I only have copies from the most essential pages in the book. I have tried to buy it but it is sold out. I have a standing "buy" order i St Petersburg and Moscow because I have been told that a second edition is supposed to be printed....It doesn't look very likely for the moment. I will inform you immediately when/if I get the book.


Return to “Russian Silver”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests