9th artel spoons?

[Catdog]

Hi! Did the 9th artel make spoons? I found seller saying they have spoons made by them.. I can send pictures if needed

[Goldstein]

Hi Catdog -

The 9th Artel (Moscow) is among other objects famous for its spoons.


Here some examples:













Regards
Goldstein

[Catdog]

Goldstein thank you for all of the help! So these look like they could be genuine?






Sorry the marks are hard to see.. it's the best picture I could get from the seller

[Goldstein]

Hi Catdog -

do not buy! Spoons made by the 9th Artel are always marked in the bowl (red arrow) - not on the stem. The design is mostly "Art nouveau"!




Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

H Catdog -

some more examples to show the outstanding quality of the works of the 9th Artel in Moscow:







Regards
Goldstein

[Ubaranda]

Spoons made by the 9th Artel are always marked in the bowl - not on the stem.

It's not correct. Often but not always.

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

are you cofident that the shown spoons (marks) are authentic? In over 40 years I never have seen plane (unengraved) spoons with the marks of the 9th Artel. They always are engraved in the art nouveau style and often patially gilded. Something like their "trademark". Exept enamel objects I only have seen engraved objects. Here some sugar tongs - the same:






Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

here a classic example of faked enamel spoons of the 11th Artel in Moscow:





For the uninformed everything is fine and as it should be.
The knowing knew the important difference:

Please read the text! (...with triangular and rectangular enamel cells, volutes, spirals, silver beads etc., etc.)

1) The enamel colours are wrong, the pattern is complete wrong
2) The marks are wrong (notice the II A instead the correct 11 A!)
3) The stems are marked instead of the bowls

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

2) The marks are wrong (notice the II A instead the correct 11 A!)
3) The stems are marked instead of the bowls

Russians are either very ignorant or everyone is a faker.
https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=630364
http://newauction.ru/offer/lozhka_deser ... 53620.html
https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=663013
https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=712959

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

The formal and color formations of this Artel are all known, but are ignored by both the fakers and the so-called experts. In all the shown spoons neither the enamel colors nor the shapes of the pattern match. Often the original silver content is 88 zolotniki!



What is more to say? Show me one spoon with these criterias! Objects of the 11th Artel are extremly rare - according to the different auction houses and even eBay they seem to be prevalent.


That is the style and quality you expect from 11th Artel!

Just ridiculous to discuss with people who never have seen an authentic object from this Artel in their life or know the difference!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

``Ridiculous`` is ad hominem.Just too old to tolerate it, sorry.
Btw. I acquired my first 11th artel cloisonne 35 years ago.Never mind, forget it.
It was my pleasure having met you here.Unfortunately, it ends now. Take care and good luck.

[Goldstein]

Hi AG212 -

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

I regret if I offended you in any way - that was not my intention. My anger is directed against the persons who recognize or buy such imitated objects without criticism!
I will never understand why another opinion immediately leads to a personal attack. Personally, I am grateful for every "enlightenment" that comes to me!

Regards
Goldstein

[Ubaranda]

Goldstein, AG2012 - this is very interesting but where are the 11 artel? In my opinion this topic is about 9 artel. Do you have something to say on the topic?

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

just to remember:
The Artels in Imperial Russia were semi formal co-operatives in different fields like agriculture, fishing, mining, timber industry and gold/silver smithing. Nowadays they are all forgotten except for the gold/silver artels due to the fine objects they produced and still exsists.

An Artel is a factory but the opposite of mass production. It produced unique objects or pieces of art of very high quality. An Artel could not have less than 5 owners/attendants. However, you were allowed to hire more people but only for a short limited period. An Artel had its own rules and you were obliged to obey them. Everyone working there was collectively liable for all the operations in the Artel. You could work in an Artel from the age of 17 on.

The discussion developed from the fact that objects of the various Atels have been falsified for years. At first it was the spoons - but with the better (= cheaper) reference sources (= India, China) for enamels are now also larger objects (beakers, oklads, kovshi, etc.) surfaced. Watch the international antiques market and you'll understand what I mean.
Prerequisite for all this is the exact knowledge of the different Artels and their very different unique work methods and techniques (styles) - not to forget how they are marked of course.
So beware and check carefully!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -
here an "authentic" matchbox cover in niello from an Artel that worked only in enamel! The counterfeiters are unrestrained and trust with success the ignorance of the buyers!



Regards
Goldstein