Russian spoon from 1864

[R ingo]

I would be glad, if someone can help me to identify the origin and maker of this spoon.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Goldstein]

Hi Ringo -

as far as I know an early (or one of his several known marks) mark of I. Sazikov from Moscow.
Nice spoon in the typical quality. To prevent misunderstandings - although Sazikov is considered a top producer and artist, he has worked not only for the Imperial Court. He was as interested in bread and butter sales as all other manufacturers of the time. Even Fabergé had simple spoons, forks and knives sold in his Moscow business. See his catalog here in the forum.

Some similar spoons from my collection:





Regards
Goldstein

[R ingo]

Hello Goldstein,

I thank you very much for your help and the informations.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Ubaranda]

Sazikov firm never used the mark CAC. This information from В.Волдаева "Ювелирная фирма Сазикова" (V.Voldaeva "Sazikov jewelry firm").
The maker of these spoons is Савелий Антонович Староверов (Savely Antonovich Staroverov) who was known from the early 1860's to 1895 (Information from the lists of silversmiths from Moscow address books).
Regards.

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

thank you for your opinion. Do you have a photo of the marks? Just an entry in the addressbook with randomly matching initial letters is, in my opinion, not convincing. My information comes from serious collector´s circles - telling that it is the mark from Sergei Sazikov. Staroverov is completely unknown to collectors and specialized book authors. The shown spoons are not often found and are all of a far above-average quality and elegance.

The maker of these spoons is Савелий Антонович Староверов (Savely Antonovich Staroverov) who was known from the early 1860's to 1895 (Information from the lists of silversmiths from Moscow address books).

If Staroverov produced for over 30 years with some success he would have been recognized in the literature and elsewhere!
Just my personal opinion supported by other collectors with very meaningful collections and connections. Personally, I am basically very much interested in a verifiable and serious elucidation which is based on watertight facts!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Ivanov # 3679 claims there was CAC, but not found in the doctoral dissertation by Voldaeva Veronica Yuryevna. She had full access to Gokhran treasury when researching,and she still works there.
So,CAC is pending further research, I guess, although I am inclined to trust her. Who else ?
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=38269

A doctoral dissertation by Voldaeva Veronica Yuryevna:
SAZIKOV JEWELRY COMPANY, THE PROBLEM OF HISTORICISM IN RUSSIAN ART IN XIX CENTURY
Moscow, 2009,238 pages
Волдаева Вероника Юрьевна
"ЮВЕЛИPНАЯ ФИPМА САЗИКОВЫХ, К ПPОБЛЕМЕ ИСТОPИЗМА В PУССКОМ ИСКУССТВЕ XIX ВЕКА"
Chief art expert of Gokhran (Гохран), the State Precious Metals and Gems Repository.The expert on cultural values with Federal Service for monitoring compliance with cultural heritage protection law ( осохранкультура).

[Goldstein]

Hi all -

I am very reluctant to refer to A. N. Ivanov - whose books contain a lot of inconsistencies - see page 97, volume 2. On the other hand, Staroverov is not mentioned at all - even though Ivanov collected everything he could find ....




Maybe some day we will know the truth.

Regards
Goldstein

[agphile]

I must confess I was puzzled as to how CAC could stand for Sazikov. An abbreviation of the family name would be саз with a zed. Sergei Ignatiyevich Sazikov's initials would be сис.

[Ubaranda]

Golgstein, just two remarks.
1. Ivanov's book was published in 2002 and the book by Voldaeva in 2009. New discoveries are possible ...
2. My circle - serious Moscow collectors, and yours?
Best regards.

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

2. My circle - serious Moscow collectors, and yours?

Than it is easy to solve the problem - ask your team - there must be more informations than a oneliner in an addressbook.

In my circle we have the following speculations:
As you may have known, Sazikov had a branch in St. Petersburg and had the position of a Court Jeweler. There was a price-wise and qualitatively great difference between the goods between St. Petersburg and Moscow - the St. Petersburg customers were richer and more sophisticated than the Moscow customers . So a new brand was invented for the Moscow customers to sell cheaper and simpler goods - this was not possible as a court jeweler. Danger for the Reputation! A business principle that has been successfully used to this day.
All the CAC spoons were made in a technical well equipped factory - with modern machinery. Did Staroverov have the same equipment?

As long as we do not have the solid proof of who the spoons has really made - we think it could have been the company of Sazikov. The emphasis is on "could"!
If you have more on Staroverov than just a name - I am very interested - are there other objects than spoons with his mark or only a lonely address? Your circle must know. Ask.

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hello again,
In regard of agphile`s comment.
All members of Sazikov family are well documented.
Who had first name, patronymic and family name matching CAC abbreviation ?
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -
it is known that Sazikov ordered 1843 the first rose engin lathe in France - the first in Russia! Nobody in Russia could make this kind of pattern at that time for an affordable price! Here the spoons we speak about - maybe Ubaranda can provide also some from his collectors friends from Moscow - they sit at the source and must have much material.




Guilloché (/ɡɪˈloʊʃ/),(or guilloche) is a decorative technique in which a very precise, intricate and repetitive pattern is mechanically engraved into an underlying material via engine turning, which uses a machine of the same name, also called a rose engine lathe. This mechanical technique improved on more time-consuming designs achieved by hand and allowed for greater delicacy, precision, and closeness of line, as well as greater speed.

The term "guilloche" is also used more generally for repetitive architectural patterns of intersecting or overlapping spirals or other shapes, as used in the Ancient Near East, classical Greece and Rome and neo-classical architecture, and Early Medieval interlace decoration in Anglo-Saxon art and elsewhere. Medieval Cosmatesque stone inlay designs with two ribbons winding around a series of regular central points are very often called guilloche. These central points are often blank, but may contain a figure, such as a rose. These senses are a back-formation from the engraving guilloché, so called because the architectural motifs resemble the designs produced by later guilloché techniques.

Just to repeat what I wrote in catchwords:
CAC = phonetic SAS = maybe Sazikov - made to serve the "cheaper" Moscow clientel without risking his reputation as Court Jeweler
Very good quality compared to other manufacturers of these years - new technic
Was Staroverov able to produce spoons of this quality? How? By hand engraving?

I also repeat: this is just an assumption from other collectors and me until we get satisfactory answers and photos.

Regards
Goldstein

[oel]

Hi Goldstein,

Did Sazikov introduced the first Rose engine lathe in Russia solely for his own use, or did other silversmiths participated in the investment? Could Russian silversmiths hire the services of the operator of Rose engine lathe?
Karl Faberge used the Rose Engine to create his signature decoration, guilloché enameling, for his eponymous and famous eggs created for Tzar Alexander III of Russia. The Rose Engine cut a series of parallel lines into the metal surface onto which the enamel was applied.
Little more history engine turning;
http://www.ornamentalturner.com/history.htm

Best,

Peter

[Goldstein]

Hi Peter -

Sazikov is mentioned in the relevant literature and in the history of the house of "Sazikov" as the first in Russia who acquired one of these sensational new machines 1843 in France. Surely other well-known (famous) companies that could afford it also immediately followed suit. As always, new trends were taken up immediately - of course, it was a question of money and the farsightedness in the company's future. Small or one-man companies could not afford these investments. I personally do not believe that someone has lent his machine to a competition company - that would speak against all life experience. You had to be better and more innovative than the competition. Projection/lead through technology was a question of economic survival - yesterday and today.
As the market grew, supply companies emerged who produced cost-effectively and delivered to small firms or firms which wanted to participate but could or would not invest. They then sold the products under their own name. Many examples are known - even Fabergé used this option.
Often is much more behind a mark you see on an object....or read in an addressbook.

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
Did I miss something ?
The spoons shown above are hand engraved.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

I refrained from attending this discussion because when I saw the mark CAC and the claim that it was Sazikov's mark, I realize that it will start an endless discussion. I do not either believe that it is Sazikov's mark, never did, because the initials doesn't fit anybody in the Sazikov's family. In addition, Postinkova doesn't either recognize any CAC-mark belonging to Sazikov.

@Goldstein
You insist that your collector circle carry the opinion/assumption that the questioned mark belongs to Sazikov. You also demand material from Ubaranda showing that the maker is somebody else than Sazikov. Ubaranda referred to the address book of Moscow. That is good enough for me. However, what material can you show to support your opinion of the mark CAC being Sazikov's other than your "collectors' opinion" and Ivanov? Moreover, no, we do not think CAC belongs to Sazikov until other poofs are presented.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
many thanks for a prolific discussion!
I have repeatedly emphasized that I am of the opinion (believe) that CAC could be Sazikov and several reasons stated why it could be him. (Could)! And why he used CAC. Maybe my text is too difficult or my English too incomprehensible - or both!
If, as a collector in Germany, I already found over the years 7 spoons of CAC, how many spoons must the collectors in Russia have found? Statistically an interesting question! Probability calculation...
But Ubaranda and his collectors in Moscow have not much to offer besides an address book address. Imagination or thought games are not welcome - if the brand does not appear in one of the constantly quoted books one is at the end of his wisdom.
Sazikov's authentic works are well-known, documented and in many collections.
What about the work of Staroverov? Is it known? Does anyone have examples or photos for comparison? Instead: icy silence.
I capitulate!

Regards
Goldstein