Schiff, Herz?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
in my collection I have 2 objects of Schiff, Herz with the dates of 1872 and 1880. A. Leistkow name a time around 1890 and no further informations.
Maybe someone know more.




Regards
Goldstein

[silvermistletoe]

In my opinion it is Johann Heinrich Schmidt from Jelgava (Mitau).

[Goldstein]

Hi silvermistletoe -

thanks for your reply. Neither Leistikow nor Wilite list Schmidt J. H. in their books.
Do you have more information (bio, photo of the mark, your source)?

Regards
Goldstein

[Dad]

In my opinion it is Johann Heinrich Schmidt from Jelgava (Mitau).

Hi, silvermistletoe

You tell this name at the sight of these punches the third time.

First time: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=18723&hilit=Heinrich+Schmidt (but uncertainly)))

Second time: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=30193&p=79391&hilit=Heinrich+Schmidt#p79391

8 years - 6 messages - 3 messages about Heinrich Schmidt)) Open your secret.

I think it's he, too. Anyway according to the book:

Silberschmiede von Lettland. Erzeugnisse und Meisterzeichen.Ausstellung im Schloss Rundāle. Katalog, II. T. erstellt von Vilīte V. Riga, 1993, 230 S., 229 Abb.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
in my collection I have 5 punches from him for the years: (1) 1872, (2) 1878, (1) 1880 and (1) 1887. So he worked at least for 15 years if not longer.
All the objects I have are spoons - never have seen other or larger objects from him. If I have found 5 spoons of him, then the likelihood that he has produced larger amounts is great - so he can not be an unknown.
What is known about Johann Heinrich Schmidt? When did he work? Are there any existing examples of his work? What does his stamp look like?
It is not enough to name a single name - it takes some evidence and facts! I am very interested in an enlightenment - but it has to be comprehensible.
Just to remember:



Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -
what is the right name of the person we are looking for?
It changes from Johann Heinrich Schmidt to Heinrich Schmidt. In the known literature there is no Johann Heinrich Schmidt but a Heinrich Schmidt.
In the book you mentioned:



That´s all I can find. But I am not wiser now....

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

An interesting case ladies and gentlemen....
What if we turn it up side down and start to question the existence of this Herz Schiff. The only place where he is mentioned is in Lestikow on p. 328 and there is practically nothing about him (um 1890 is all). Leistikow doesn't recognize any Heinrich Schmidt except for Georg Heinrich Schmidt but his mark is known to be GHS. Vilite in turn does not recognize this Schiff at all and nothing in Postnikova. In "Riga Silver" is Georg Heinrich Schmidt (1849-1893) also mentioned and mark showed (GHS). A wild speculation could be that he might have used a second mark HS, but....? Anyway, in Vilites book there are two prospects and more information:

1. August Heinrich Schmidt from Riga 1848-1877 (he is mentioned earlier by me in the link above). Unfortunately his mark is unknown (not mentioned in Leistikow).
2. (Johann) Henrich Schmidt from Jelgava/Mitau (not either in Leistikow). Could it be that his first name is Johann but he uses his second name in the punch? His punch is as well unknown. However, the town is Jelgava/Mitau, but it could be a mistake...? Jelgava is, anyway, not far from Riga...

The punch HS could belong to either of these masters and not to Herz Schiff, but...?

Now it is essential to know more about this Herz Schiff. Does anybody know anything or maybe he is a phantom like Spiridonov and others alike. We have met phantoms before here....not to talk about errors and mistakes....! I have nothing about him in my sources and nothing on internet.

In my opinion it is worth investigate a bit more...start your engines please...! :-))))

[Dad]

........
In my opinion it is worth investigate a bit more...start your engines please...! :-))))

Brainstorm. )))

What do we have?

1. V.Vilite has found the silversmith (Heinrich Schmidt) in Mitau in 1867, who worked till 1898. Anybody has examples of "HS" with townmark of Mitau? Show, please.

2. We have the punches "HS" with Riga townmark since 1872 .....

3. We don't know other silversmiths with HS initials in Riga in this period (since 1872)

4. The Mitau assay office was closed in 1871. All silversmiths from Mitau have been sent to the Riga assay office.
Therefore. Since 1872 silversmiths from Mitau had the Riga townmark.

And what follows from this? )))


Best. Reg..

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -

many thanks for the rectification! But who is Schiff, Herz.... :-)

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

It follows that most likely HS in Riga is (Johann?) Heinrich Schmidt. The earliest assaying Riga year on Goldstein's objects is 1872. This is in line with Dad's claim of the Jelgava office being closed in 1871. Who Herz Schiff is, is a good question. Is that really a name I may ask? In English "Heart Ship"!? Who would give a child a name like that? In addition HS is a male and having a forename like Herz/Heart.... !? I start to believe the Leistikow has made a mistake. As mentioned earlier I cannot find anything about this Herz Schiff. He is a phantom....or who is he?

@Goldstein
I have understood that you are acquainted with Annelore Leistikow. Maybe you could contact her and ask where from this HS/Herz Shiff in her book originates?
@Dad
Sorry but I have no HS mark with Jelgava town mark to show.

However, a new question has arose. Dad says that Jelgava was closed in 1871. In Postnikova case #418 is stated to belong to Iosif Aleksandrovitch Schmidetsky. A soot mark is showed with the year 1895!!. The same goes for Vilite on p. 13. and Leistikow on p. 260. What do you say about that Dad, are sure about 1871?
Schmidetsky is also known as assaying in Odessa 1892, Baku 1894-1895 and twice in Tblisi 1895-1896 and 1903-1904, also in the Transcaucasian administration 1897-1908. Some contradiction in the years but anyway? If it turns out that I·Ш isn't Schmidetsky in Jelgava and/or that Jelgava was closed 1871 then where from is this punch I·Ш 1895 and whose is it?

This is so typical for Russian marks. When you stumble into a problem and somehow manage to solve it, you have a new questions in front of you....Aaaahhhh!

[silverfan]

@Qrt.S
Annelore Leistikow is dead.
Herz is a usual male jewish first name.
Regards silverfan

[Goldstein]

Hi -

This is so typical for Russian marks. When you stumble into a problem and somehow manage to solve it, you have a new questions in front of you....Aaaahhhh!

If you have only 3 or 4 outdated books, in which one author obviously copies the other, no fundus of real, authentic objects in the hands - you only can wait until you get some informations of people with better and more reliabel sources. We silver collectors call this "exchange of experience"!
And if a spoon from Jelgava with a date of 1873 shows up - you have to start from the beginning....
What I learned over the years: there are strict rules/laws - but always some exeptions. Explaining this is sometimes an almost insoluble problem.

Regards
Goldstein

[Dad]

..... In Postnikova case #418 is stated to belong to Iosif Aleksandrovitch Schmidetsky. A soot mark is showed with the year 1895!!. The same goes for Vilite on p. 13. and Leistikow on p. 260. What do you say about that Dad, are sure about 1871?
Schmidetsky is also known as assaying in Odessa 1892, Baku 1894-1895 and twice in Tblisi 1895-1896 and 1903-1904, also in the Transcaucasian administration 1897-1908. Some contradiction in the years but anyway? If it turns out that I·Ш isn't Schmidetsky in Jelgava and/or that Jelgava was closed 1871 then where from is this punch I·Ш 1895 and whose is it?
....

Hi, Qrt.S


Shmidetsky in Mitava is a absurdische fake!

Never Shmidetsky worked in Mitava.

[Qrt.S]

#Goldstein
First of all you still have no idea of what I have or don't have. I said it before and I say it again: I have no need to emphasize: "...this is from my collection..." like you seem to have.
Secondly, would it be possible that for you for once start to behave nicely. Irrespective of what pseudo you use for the moment; Sazikov, Postnikov, Zolotnik and now Goldstein your behavior is almost always harsh, offending and impolite against questioners and me too. With you arrogant attitude, you only lose friends and scare people from asking questions. And if you don't have anything constructive or educational to say. Don't say anything just be quiet, thank you.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Sorry admin, I know I'm out of topic but I found it necessary to make the comment above. Delete it if you find it necessary.

Thirdly, yes books become outdated when time passes. Therefore there is of upmost importance to at least try to keep them updated because there are no newer or better books available at the moment. Thanks to Dad we now know that Schmidetsky did not work in Jelgava. I didn't know that but now I do.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

#Goldstein
First of all you still have no idea of what I have or don't have. I said it before and I say it again: I have no need to emphasize: "...this is from my collection..." like you seem to have.
Secondly, would it be possible that for you for once start to behave nicely. Irrespective of what pseudo you use for the moment; Sazikov, Postnikov, Zolotnik and now Goldstein your behavior is almost always harsh, offending and impolite against questioners and me too. With you arrogant attitude, you only lose friends and scare people from asking questions. I don't think you have many friends, do you? And if you don't have anything constructive or educational to say. Don't say anything just be quiet, thank you.

Now you are acting like we have known you for years.

English is a simple language but more complex than you think: If I write "if you have ..." then I do not mean someone personally but mean "if one have .."!
I really do not understand why you lost your composure in this way.
If I want to address you personally - I will!
Is´nt it true that with the help of the spoon from "my collection" we shed some light in the case? Refute outdated books? Are real existing objects not important?
Sorry - but I can not understand your behavior!

Goldstein

[silvermistletoe]

In my opinion it is Johann Heinrich Schmidt from Jelgava (Mitau).

Hi, silvermistletoe

You tell this name at the sight of these punches the third time.

First time: http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... ch+Schmidt (but uncertainly)))

Second time: http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... idt#p79391

8 years - 6 messages - 3 messages about Heinrich Schmidt)) Open your secret.

I think it's he, too. Anyway according to the book:

Silberschmiede von Lettland. Erzeugnisse und Meisterzeichen.Ausstellung im Schloss Rundāle. Katalog, II. T. erstellt von Vilīte V. Riga, 1993, 230 S., 229 Abb.

Every Gubern (Gouvernorate of Czarist Russia) had thier own assay office.
Jelgava (= Mitau, Mitava), is just 42km away from Riga.
The Jelgava's assay office was abolished in period about 1870s-1880s (no exact data) because of the railway connection built between Jelgava and Riga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelgava
The same situation were about Tartu (= Dorpat, Derpt, Jurjew) where local jewellers brought their goods to the assayers to Reval (=Tallinn) or Pskov (=Pleskau)
Heinrich Schmidt - were the jeweller in Jelgava, who's works are not extremely rare and sometimes can be found... he brought his production to the assayers in Jelgava and Riga.
Edward Schmidt, jeweller from Bauska, as well brought his productions to Jelgava and Riga.

[Qrt.S]

Does this mean that the mark HS i Leistikov actually belongs to Heinrich Schmidt and the mark belonging to Hertz Schiff is not known? Just compare the letter S in the mark with The S in the Leistikov's book.

[silvermistletoe]

An interesting case ladies and gentlemen....
What if we turn it up side down and start to question the existence of this Herz Schiff. The only place where he is mentioned is in Lestikow on p. 328 and there is practically nothing about him (um 1890 is all). Leistikow doesn't recognize any Heinrich Schmidt except for Georg Heinrich Schmidt but his mark is known to be GHS. Vilite in turn does not recognize this Schiff at all and nothing in Postnikova. In "Riga Silver" is Georg Heinrich Schmidt (1849-1893) also mentioned and mark showed (GHS). A wild speculation could be that he might have used a second mark HS, but....? Anyway, in Vilites book there are two prospects and more information:

1. August Heinrich Schmidt from Riga 1848-1877 (he is mentioned earlier by me in the link above). Unfortunately his mark is unknown (not mentioned in Leistikow).
2. (Johann) Henrich Schmidt from Jelgava/Mitau (not either in Leistikow). Could it be that his first name is Johann but he uses his second name in the punch? His punch is as well unknown. However, the town is Jelgava/Mitau, but it could be a mistake...? Jelgava is, anyway, not far from Riga...

The punch HS could belong to either of these masters and not to Herz Schiff, but...?

Now it is essential to know more about this Herz Schiff. Does anybody know anything or maybe he is a phantom like Spiridonov and others alike. We have met phantoms before here....not to talk about errors and mistakes....! I have nothing about him in my sources and nothing on internet.

In my opinion it is worth investigate a bit more...start your engines please...! :-))))

About Rundale catalog list on small jewellers, they were most Chosen People and they worked at home "at kitchen", usually were not making the spoons, but rather
commonly earrings, rings, brooches, often in gold and this jewelry were mentioned in the list of Rundale catalog, but their hallmarks were almost unknown or undefined. This is because Leistikow and Rundale does not overview several categories of things, such as bijoux (i.e. rings, earrings, brooches, cufflinks etc., Latvian enthnograpic fibulas (= sakta's).

[silvermistletoe]

........
In my opinion it is worth investigate a bit more...start your engines please...! :-))))

4. The Mitau assay office was closed in 1871. All silversmiths from Mitau have been sent to the Riga assay office.
Therefore. Since 1872 silversmiths from Mitau had the Riga townmark.



Best. Reg..

Oh! You know the year! 1871! I did not know this year exactly. But ever since all Courlander silversmiths (and goldsmiths) had to come to Riga!

[Qrt.S]

Two questions are still open

1. Does the mark HS belong to (Johann) Heirich Schmidt and not Herz Schiff i.e Leistikov has made a mistake?
2. Who is Herz Schiff and what mark did he use?

Can anybody fill in ?