Maker's mark request for these vodka cups

[SilverK]

Hi,

I think this is probably an easy one to those with the right books. I was hoping someone could identify the maker of these little vodka cups and when the maker operated.

Thanks to all on this splendid site.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Not in my PL edition for Kostroma.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Kostroma it is and could be Ivan Ratkov PL#940

[AG2012]

In my PL Ivan Ratkov (ИР) is in script. Edition 1961 (in electronic form).
Ivan Efimov Ratkov in Sidorovskoe village, Kostroma, # 406

[Qrt.S]

@AG2012
What in the earth do you have ???1961!? Postnikova's first incomplete edition was published in 1967. This book was copied by Boris Rothemund in 1971. Postnikovas revised next edition NAUKA was published in 1983 and a facsimile UNVES 1995. Then there is a second facsimile from 2005 (if I remember correctly). Anyway, all three editions, 1983, 1995 and 2005 are similar and not updates as sometimes is claimed. The first edition from 1967 as well as Rothemund from 1971 are more or less useless.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry I completely forgot the original question. Ratkov has two punches one in script and another with "ordinary" letters. Both marks are mentioned in PL as #940 and #940a in Kostroma. In Rothemun Ratkov is #406 but only in script as AG2012 already mentioned.

[AG2012]

My mistake. Edition 1961 is the book by PL about silversmiths working in Kaluga.

[SilverK]

Thank you Qrt.S and AG2012 for your interesting input. I'm not quite sure from the conversation how confident you are that Ivan Efimov Ratkov of Sidorovskoe village was the silversmith. What is your feeling on that attribution?

[AG2012]

Qrt.S has found two documented marks of Ivan Efimov Ratkov in Kostroma, working at the turn of 19th century. Mine was in script, though, but Qrt.S explained there is another mark just like yours.
I doubt there was another silversmith with the same initials working in Kostroma at the same time.
It`s positive identification if you ask me. Otherwise would be too much coincidence.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi SilverK -

Here are the controversially treated brands - from the silversmith there are 2 different brands - Cyrillic (940a) and Latin (940) known. Photos or illustrations will help the non-expert to understand considerably!


Goldstein

[SilverK]

Thanks to all for your replies. The pictures have helped considerably and I feel the question has been answered fully.

Regards,

Silverk.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Excuse me, # 940 ИР is also Cyrillic, not Latin.

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

thank you for the rectification of my written nonsens - I can vaguely remember that I meant print or writing letters before my nurse brougt me to bed....

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Take care of yourself.There are more important things than silver marks. Best wishes.

[Ubaranda]

Ivan Ratkov worked in the late 19th century. Hallmark on the cups of sample 1908-17. I guess the Maker of these cups is Ivan Rubtsov, who worked in the early 20th century and produced cups.

[AG2012]

Иван Ананьев Рубцов
Ivan Rubtsov, Podolskoe village, Kostroma
I suppose they could not have worked with the same initials at the same time.
Ivan Rubtsov was recorded after 1908. So, better candidate for ИР in this particular case (engraved cups).

[SilverK]

Hmmmm.... comparing the Rubtsov mark below and the mark on my cups, there are some definite differences, though I appreciate he may have used different stamps over time:

- The cross-bar of Rubtsov's 'И' in particular is more horizontal than 'mine', starting further up the first leg and finishing further down the second
- The outline of 'my' stamp has an engineered cut corner at the bottom right, whereas Rubtsov's has more generally rounded corners, though there is a more pronounced cut to the Rubtsov in the same corner.

Have you any idea when the Rubtsov stamp was used? It may be that it's a later stamp and more worn than mine. I would estimate that my cups were made c1910-1920.

[AG2012]

``Cross bar`` in И is of no importance. There is no special rule how to write И in Cyrillic. As you can see in PL examples И is also of different form in regard of ``cross bar``.
Thanks to the contributors the search has been narrowed, Rubtsov being more likely the maker ( ``после``means after 1908).Greek letters were used 1908 – 1917. Having in mind historical circumstances one might assume vodka cups were made before The Great War and the revolution, and then all hell broke loose.

[SilverK]

Thanks to all the contributors for your expertise. Your input has been very helpful indeed.

Regards,

Silverk.