Unknown maker and vendor?

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I need help in finding the producer and the seller (?) of this salt and pepper set. I am grateful for every tip.
Assayer Petrov, Wasili 1883-1886 is known.




Many thanks in advance

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,

Found this mark on silverplate (!) described as ``Фабрика А.Матисен`` (A. Matisen factory) 19/20 century.
#2672 in Ivanov
Матиссен Александр Христофорович
Matissen Alexander Christophorovich
Factory owner, 40 workers in 1873.
АМ , А Х М

AA must be a subcontractor.

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

Great! Many thanks! I mostly avoid Ivavov - but sometimes ......

Goldstein

[Joerg]

Hi Goldstein
I just notice, the rifles are Swiss, not Russian. Schmidt-Rubin, Type 1889.

Check here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmidt%E2%80%93Rubin
Why Swiss rifles on a Russian set?

This link Shows the Russian rifles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

[Goldstein]

Hi Joerg -
a Swiss shooting-award with Russian marks and Silverplate factory mark - what is that? Very, very strange!
Many thanks for your information!

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi Goldstein,
Very interesting item and worth searching for details.
A. Matisen had a factory and produced silver. The silverplate item I found was really made on industrial scale (machinery needed). You know how to check whether it`s solid silver.
Something is confusing, though. Letters on the wreath ribbon are raised, not hand engraved, as far as I can see. That means there was a die to cast or stamp the lettering. Further presumption: dies are expensive and made only upon commission, order (e.g. for important hotels etc). It does not pay off to make a die for a couple of items, unless the customer was a serious buyer.
Can you read what`s written, please? I could decipher ``sous`` and ``Lausanne``.
As far as I could see the last year on the ribbon is 1909 and the item was assayed in 1895. The discrepancy is puzzling; having this commissioned 14 years earlier does not make sense.
Faking A.Matissen mark does not make sense, either: seldom seen and complicated mark.
Let`s start with this: is it silver and what`s written?
Best wishes

[AG2012]

Assayed 1885.

[AG2012]

There is another possibility;the wreath was added later, i.e. in 1909.
Bat having Swiss guns on 1885 Moscow cellars is puzzling.I am not familiar with late 19th century rifles.Too much coincidence,though;Lausanne and Swiss rifles.
The lack of export-import marks is not controversial;it was not meant to be traded.

[Joerg]

The item is relating to the 50th anniversery of the Schweizer Unteroffiziersverband, Sektion Lausanne, the Swiss non commission officer association, section Lausanne, foundet 1859. See the website of the association for the founding date.
http://www.military.ch/de/presentation
Non commission officers could not afford a budget similar to an officer association. I assume for their celebration they took what they found and had it assembled. At least an explaination
Regards, Jörg

[AG2012]

Hi Joerg and Goldstein,
That makes sense and supports the assumption the wreath was added 24 later (easily done, btw).
Let`s see whether the inscription is die cast (stamped). That would complicate the issue, i.e. a die for the single item, unless they attached the wreath on whatever they had, as suggested by Joerg.
And Swiss rifles on Russian salt cellars assayed in 1885.

[oel]

Great sleuthing, I am impressed.


Best,

Peter

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 and Joerg -

I have to appologize wholeheartedly for the unnecessary work I have caused! This post was meant more ironic and should show that counterfeiters will stop at no nonsens at all to get without compunction to your money.
This object was one of the countless Swiss shooting awards (nicely and detailed made), the bottom with the original Swiss marks was changed against a silver plate with Russian marks (from a cigarette case I presume). The wrong type of rifles, inscription of wrong date and town - who cares? Only if you know your stuff you see at once all the red flags - and dispense with thanks! I am absolutely sure your decision had been the same within 5 minutes!
Sorry again !

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
It was challenging and time well spent (Swiss automatic rifle invention and rifles in Russian army in the Great War).
So, ``transposed marks`` is your conclusion. We could not see the whole bottom plate and the dimensions that would fit a cigarette case instead of genuine plate. Or it was only under one drum or in the middle.Never mind. I find transposing in this case a demanding task, dismantling and soldering without causing the whole construction to collapse. Besides, gilding looks intact; it would have vanished when pickled after soldering. Re-gilded, then. Amazing and hard to believe.Difficult to tell without inspecting details of the item.
There is a word in Russian for this type of fakes КОНСТРУКТОР (construction, constructor).
Best wishes