A family´s silver

[Goldstein]

Hi all -

Through fortunate circumstances I could purchase the silver of an old noble Baltic family from Mitau (Jelgava). The example of the tea/coffee spoons show the tortuous paths of the then aquisition of it.


Assayer: Tverskoj, Dmitrij 1832-1850 (St. Petersburg)
Maker: Ehmke, Johann Heinrich 1843-1880 (Riga)



Assayer: A. Romanov 1905-1912 (St. Petersburg)
Maker: Pankratev, Egor 1898-1908 (St. Petersburg)



Assayer: Subarew, Iwan 1854-1862, 1870 (Mitau)
Maker: Eggink,Theodor 1862-1866 (Mitau, Reval)

Source: Postnikova-L., Leistikow

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Interesting indeed and very good pictures, thank you for that. However, my eyes caught the first spoon with marks of Ehmke (HE) and Tverskoy (ДТ). The spoon and its marks is undoubtedly authentic, but what makes me wonder is that Dimitry Tverskoy assayed in St Petersburg and Ehmke worked in Riga. Tverskoy never officially worked in Riga. That means that there should be a Riga assayer and Riga town mark on the spoon but that is not the case here. In 1848 both Leopold Schlüter and Harald Beck assayed in Riga and the assayer with his location should correspond with the maker's location. They don't. Why did Ehmke carry his production to St Petersburg, a risky journey, when it could have been assayed in Riga?
Is the answer that both Schlüter and Beck were incapable of assaying for some unknown reason in 1848? It can be the answer and in that case the spoon has a rather seldom seen genuine combination of maker and assayer. But the answer can also be that the "ukaz" demanding the maker and assayer to be working in the same town, is not carved in stone exceptions happened. Either Tverskoy made a trip to Riga and used his marks there or Ehmke travelled to St Petersburg. Which one is the answer I don't know...or is there a third alternative?

By the way, we have an almost similar situation between Reval and St Petesburgh. In 1842 the Reval assay office was closed and the master's had to rely on St Petersburg until 1873 when Reval was reopened. The difference is only that Riga was never closed.

Very interesting, other thoughts are welcome.

[AG2012]

Qrt.S has noticed the discrepancy (maker vs. assayer).
Is it necessarily a silversmith from Riga because the family lives in Mitau?
There were three silversmiths in StPetersburg with obviously German family names (or at least not Russian to start with Э) who were mentioned in 1849 both in Skurlov and Ivanov, but the first name is unknown.
ERLICH
ERIK
ESTERBECK
If one of them was Hans, Heinrich, Helmut or Herman his mark could easily have been HE, and perfect match with the assayer in StPetersburg, and no need to travel.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S and AG2012 -
the discrepancies are one reason why I posted the 3 spoons (actual 3 x 6 spoons) from one family.
Please read A. Leistikow pp 305 and 306 for confusing details.
For all others in brief: Imperial Russia reformed its conrol - and assay system on December 12th 1840. There were assay offices of 3 (!) different kinds -main assay offices (St. Petersburg and Moscow), district- and lokal assay offices. Riga was a district assay office but was subordinate to the office in St.Petersburg. I would need 2 pages to roughly explain the details....
One can immagine when a law was instituted how long it took to function in ernest in Russia. The actual effects can be seen on this spoon from Ehmke, J. H. It had to be assayed in St. Petersburg until all the new laws were working. The next way from Riga... According to the dates on different spoons it took some time until Ehmke could assay in Riga.
The 2 shown Ehmke marks are later - they should only underline the authentity of his mark on the St. Petersburg spoon.




I hope there is some light shining in the tunnel now!

Correction:

Eggink, Theodor
1851-1862

Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -
I forgot to mention that Pankratev, Egor is the maker, who later sold many spoons to the vendor SBurg - a mark which later rise to many rumors and speculations - but had a simple commercial background.
Maybe one time I set a table with all the crazy spoons and controverse (authentic but often different from the books) silver I have, invite you all to coffee and cake and wait for your comments as well as maybe sincere apologies......

Goldstein

[Ubaranda]

Goldstein, I think AG2012 rights - HE is unknown maker from St.Peterburg. Explain me why these items at the same time were assayed in Riga?




Qrt.S, you are mistaken - the Reval assay office was closed in 1875 and was reopened in 1886.




Best regards. Alex.

[AG2012]

One of the pictures posted by Alexis important.Maker AM was assayed in Riga in 1848, meaning the assay office was operational at the time.

[Goldstein]

Hi Alex -
I am a seeker of the unknown! Two facts I learned over the dekades: 1) somewhere is always existing the missing link, object or name. 2) There is always an exeption of the rule, law, habit or procedure. You only have to find the existing proof!
Opposite initials/names without photos or sootmarks I am absolute skeptical - they are worthless.
And please do not forget: the slversmith HE, AG2012 refers to, whoever he was, was no unknown loner, making only one or two spoons. He must produce to live. Where are objects from him? Ehmke, J. H. on the other side had a big output - his silver is the easiest to find Baltic silver!

This is my opinion - I stand to be corrected! I am not the Pope - never-failing! Baltic silver has many secrets!

The connections between St. Petersburg, Riga and Reval were versatile and very fruitful on reciprocity! All three towns were very rich and had many trading connections to the rest of Europe. Riga was the gateway to Russia and the Baltic states! There was a huge trade going on with many connections and possibilities. When we speak from the Baltic states today we - only see small, poor rural countries, depending on the EU.
Just some of my thoughts. I am open to all sides - if they make sense.

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Ubaranda

Yes, you are right. I should have written that the Reval office changed the markings to the Russian marks. However, It is an interesting question whether Reval was actually closed down or not between 1874-1884 because you can see maker's marks from Reval connected to a hallmark from St Petersburg and also hallmarks with the town mark with three lions (=Reval) in different shapes. Anyway, Reval is not the case now, sorry!

[Dad]

Hi, all.

Ehmke was registered as the Riga silversmith. To send to St. Petersburg products for a punching was expensively and it isn't necessary. In Riga the good district assay tent functioned. Without registration his production at the Petersburg assay office wouldn't be accepted. The Baltic jewelers-sellers sold many products of the Petersburg silversmiths. Business of the Baltic masters very much suffered because of this fact.



The Revel assay office worked without breaks till 1888. It wasn't closed and didn't open.

Best Reg..

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -
if it is not Ehmke - who is it? In my Russian sources is no HE.

Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -
It is a bold assumption that the family name starts with the letter E, it could also be the letter H. Surname first, Christian name second etc. or vice versa. Both variants are used.

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Dad

Hi, all.
The Revel assay office worked without breaks till 1888. It wasn't closed and didn't open.

Best Reg..

Are you absolutely sure about that? In Alur Reinan's book p. 31 is written

"Im Jahre 1873 wurden in Russland ein weiteres Verändrungen im System der Wertmetallprüfung vorgenommen. Anscheinend verschwanden damit sowohl der Revaler als auch der Dorpater Proberhof....".
Well he writes "Anscheinend" (=apparently...)

However, in my notes I find that at least Fyodorov, Stepanov (or Spiridonov?) and Andreyev (St. P. mobile) assayed in Reval from 1873-1888...?
Sometimes it seems to be very difficult to know what actually happened. Different sources give contradictory information...

[Ubaranda]

The Revel assay office worked without breaks till 1888. It wasn't closed and didn't open.

Hello Dad!
Why many Estonian makers used the assay offices in St.Peterburg, Riga and Pskov in 1875-1885?
I would like to see the Reval hallmarks of that period.
Thanks in advance. Alex.

[Goldstein]

Hi Alex -
here you go - 2 punches from Michelsen , Leopold



Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Nice doing Goldstein. It fits perfectly because assayer ИС in Reval is I. Stepanov or possibly Ivan Spiridonov, active 1874-1886.

[Qrt.S]

One more

[Ubaranda]

Goldstein, Qrt.S - many thanks for your examples! But if Reval assay office worked in 1875-1885 I repeat my question: "Why many Estonian makers used the assay offices in St.Peterburg, Riga and Pskov in 1875-1885?"

[Goldstein]

Hi Alex -
quote from my post: There were assay offices of 3 (!) different kinds -main assay offices (St. Petersburg and Moscow), district- and lokal assay offices. Riga was a district assay office but was subordinate to the office in St.Petersburg. I would need 2 pages to roughly explain the details.... Reval was a local assay office after reorganisation.

Goldstein

[Dad]

Goldstein, Qrt.S - many thanks for your examples! But if Reval assay office worked in 1875-1885 I repeat my question: "Why many Estonian makers used the assay offices in St.Peterburg, Riga and Pskov in 1875-1885?"

I can ask you to show examples: who? when? where? Then the answer will be correct.