got a sardines fork from the silversmith with the again initiales ITB from St. Petersburg.
Who could it be?
Many thanks in advance
Goldstein
ITB again
Re: ITB again
The initials must be in Latin alphabet because of letter I.
V.Skurlov archives: The only master with initials ITB is БЕРГ Иоганн Томасович, 1903 Ремесл. управа: финл. уроженец, СДМ.
(classified In alphabetical order starting with family name B, then first name I and middle name T).
Архив Валентина Скурлова СПИСОК золотых, серебряных дел мастеров и ювелиров Санкт-Петербурга-Петрограда, 1849 – 1917 гг.
V.Skurlov archives: The only master with initials ITB is БЕРГ Иоганн Томасович, 1903 Ремесл. управа: финл. уроженец, СДМ.
(classified In alphabetical order starting with family name B, then first name I and middle name T).
Архив Валентина Скурлова СПИСОК золотых, серебряных дел мастеров и ювелиров Санкт-Петербурга-Петрограда, 1849 – 1917 гг.
Re: ITB again
Not a bad suggestion made by AG2012 much better than Buntzell who had been dead for over 50 years at that time. Unfortunately there is a minor problem. Johan Thomas Berg was a Finns but he marked with Cyrillic letters either ИБ or ИТБ around 1895-1903, but it is not precluded that he could have used Latin letters as well. We don't know that but I could vote for Berg.
Just for the records:
1.The letter I in a mark doesn't necessary indicate a Latin alphabet. In e.g. the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet you will find the letter I....
2. Goldstein's claim in the other ITB-thread that punches were used after the master's dead is pure nonsense based on whatever "rumor" only. Quote:
"...(after the acquisition of a workshop, the old stamps were often used by the new smith, tax avoidance tricks, etc.)..."
The Russian silver legislation strictly forbade the use of a deceased master's punches, demanding his punches to be destroyed immediately. If it occurred that they were in use, the user was severely fined. If the workshop continued under a new owner, it had to make new punches with his name. The widow or daughter who inherited the workshop could also continue the work but they had to apply for new punches from the guild. There are many examples of that procedure among those the famous Maria Semenova whose punch was MC. She inherited the workshop of her deceased father Vasily S (BC). and continued the business with marks of her own. Not a single woman in whole Russia was a qualified goldsmith master, not either Maria S. Every woman in a punch/mark is either a widow or a daughter who legally continued the business.
About the Russian legislation that was very strict indeed. As mentioned if a master was caught of breaking the law for whatever reason the first time he was severely warned and heavily fined. If he got caught for a second time he was again fined more heavily and put in prison for a period of time. If it happened a third time the caught master's property was confiscated by the government and he was sent to Siberia with a one way ticket. He also lost his master license. It was not worth to take the risk, it was too dangerous. However, sometimes some "jerks" tried but usually with bad results...very bad!
Was is stated above is cold facts and can be checked by anybody. Sometimes it worth to take a look at the law and not spread false information!
Just for the records:
1.The letter I in a mark doesn't necessary indicate a Latin alphabet. In e.g. the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet you will find the letter I....
2. Goldstein's claim in the other ITB-thread that punches were used after the master's dead is pure nonsense based on whatever "rumor" only. Quote:
"...(after the acquisition of a workshop, the old stamps were often used by the new smith, tax avoidance tricks, etc.)..."
The Russian silver legislation strictly forbade the use of a deceased master's punches, demanding his punches to be destroyed immediately. If it occurred that they were in use, the user was severely fined. If the workshop continued under a new owner, it had to make new punches with his name. The widow or daughter who inherited the workshop could also continue the work but they had to apply for new punches from the guild. There are many examples of that procedure among those the famous Maria Semenova whose punch was MC. She inherited the workshop of her deceased father Vasily S (BC). and continued the business with marks of her own. Not a single woman in whole Russia was a qualified goldsmith master, not either Maria S. Every woman in a punch/mark is either a widow or a daughter who legally continued the business.
About the Russian legislation that was very strict indeed. As mentioned if a master was caught of breaking the law for whatever reason the first time he was severely warned and heavily fined. If he got caught for a second time he was again fined more heavily and put in prison for a period of time. If it happened a third time the caught master's property was confiscated by the government and he was sent to Siberia with a one way ticket. He also lost his master license. It was not worth to take the risk, it was too dangerous. However, sometimes some "jerks" tried but usually with bad results...very bad!
Was is stated above is cold facts and can be checked by anybody. Sometimes it worth to take a look at the law and not spread false information!
Re: ITB again
While I don't dispute for a second the facts that Qrt.S has presented regarding the penalties for the misuse of maker's punches, it is a fact that in England, where the penalties were also, if not more, severe, some silversmiths would still risk flouting the law for the smallest of gains. For example items have been found with counterfeit marks, but with the silver content fully up to the required standard, and the only advantage achieved was the saving of the duty and assay charges which was only a relatively small amount. For this, they would risk transportation for 7 to 14 years, a penalty that caused fear through all, and although it is hard for us to understand nowadays, this fear caused many to beg to be hanged or committed suicide because they believed transportation was hell on earth.
Regardless of the penalty, there are always those in England who will take the risk, could it not be the same in Russia?
Trev.
Regardless of the penalty, there are always those in England who will take the risk, could it not be the same in Russia?
Trev.
Re: ITB again
Hi Trev.
Yes of course it happened to some extent in Russia as well. Perhaps you didn't notice but I wrote in the end that some "jerks" tried but with poor results...There are always certain persons who will try regardless of the consequences but that percentage was in Russia rather low to my knowledge. Siberia was fearsome enough for many. Anyway, what I wrote is concerning imperial Russia only. The main point in my input is anyway, that conclusions should not be based on vague or on unverified information not to mention oral "rumors" or talks, heard on horse mens' markets....!! I seems to me that I cannot put enough stress on that! The problem is that there are too many to name unknown maker's in Russia and that seems to lead too easy to false assumptions. You cannot just say that a mark e.g. "ABC" belongs to a certain master who happens to have the same initials but has died maybe 50 years or more earlier or he worked in another town, or, or, or. All marks must correspond. If not, only "maybe" is left... not always even that!
I cannot recall ever stumbling into a mark punched years after the respective master's death. But I like many others have stumbled into fake punches and unknown punches now and then..., nothing odd with that.
Have a nice day
Qrt.S
Yes of course it happened to some extent in Russia as well. Perhaps you didn't notice but I wrote in the end that some "jerks" tried but with poor results...There are always certain persons who will try regardless of the consequences but that percentage was in Russia rather low to my knowledge. Siberia was fearsome enough for many. Anyway, what I wrote is concerning imperial Russia only. The main point in my input is anyway, that conclusions should not be based on vague or on unverified information not to mention oral "rumors" or talks, heard on horse mens' markets....!! I seems to me that I cannot put enough stress on that! The problem is that there are too many to name unknown maker's in Russia and that seems to lead too easy to false assumptions. You cannot just say that a mark e.g. "ABC" belongs to a certain master who happens to have the same initials but has died maybe 50 years or more earlier or he worked in another town, or, or, or. All marks must correspond. If not, only "maybe" is left... not always even that!
I cannot recall ever stumbling into a mark punched years after the respective master's death. But I like many others have stumbled into fake punches and unknown punches now and then..., nothing odd with that.
Have a nice day
Qrt.S
Re: ITB again
Hi all -
first a thank you to AG2012 and dognose for real interesting hints/remarks
Member Hose.dk made also some interesting observations in the same direction. He is a collector and can take objects in his hands. We nearly all know the difference beteen theory and praxis !
I copy the text here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Bergen makers mark 1891?
Quote
Postby Hose_dk » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:44 pm
It can be a fake in many ways. In fact whats a fake?
Also fom here - its not a fake as my college already stated.
You can make a crime in many ways.
The king put tax on the silver items. Month mark is set by guardein/wardein to assure that tax was paid. I have more than one piece of silver where the silversmith reused old month mark - to say - tax paid. The only one that suffered was the king cheated of his tax.
Guardein set city mark - to gurantee - silver content. As long as content is 13½, or 13 1/3 or whatever Lod was requered. Its not a fake, just because mark is missing. When these marks are reused, only one getting cheated was guardein for his fee to controle.
Guardein set guardein mark to say that he set city mark. Same argument as obove.
You should see old silver in another context. They where honest.
I many cases - I have several exambles - maker was also guardein. That Means mr abc put one mark at silversmith abc. He then set a different guardein mark because now he bekame guardein mr. abc. And he added city mark and tax mark as Kings representative mr abc.
Same person but different roles.
I many Towns there where no guardein. What should a silver Smith do? He has some options. He could have 2 different marks. When he stroke the 2 different mark each 2 times the silver har the requered 4 marks.
Or - he could set one mark, or 2 times his mark, or 3 times his mark og 4 times his mark.
Or he could get a city mark and strike that one time and his makers mark 2 times.
All these variations excist.
I my Collection I have a huge variety of funny ways to set the lowfull 4 marks.
But I never question the lod of the silver. They where wery lawfull. They worked - their conditions made it impossible to fulfill the law. But that is not the same as they broke the law.
This is proberly very confusing.
----------------------------------------------------------
That was the direction of my[url]hypothesis[/url]! Buntzell was the name of this hypothesis with many questionmarks - though he was already dead. By the way this answer is wrong: [quote="Qrt.S"]His punch was JTB in script. See the ITP photo of the marks from PL!
I read a pretty banner lately:
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Goldstein
first a thank you to AG2012 and dognose for real interesting hints/remarks
Member Hose.dk made also some interesting observations in the same direction. He is a collector and can take objects in his hands. We nearly all know the difference beteen theory and praxis !
I copy the text here:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Bergen makers mark 1891?
Quote
Postby Hose_dk » Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:44 pm
It can be a fake in many ways. In fact whats a fake?
Also fom here - its not a fake as my college already stated.
You can make a crime in many ways.
The king put tax on the silver items. Month mark is set by guardein/wardein to assure that tax was paid. I have more than one piece of silver where the silversmith reused old month mark - to say - tax paid. The only one that suffered was the king cheated of his tax.
Guardein set city mark - to gurantee - silver content. As long as content is 13½, or 13 1/3 or whatever Lod was requered. Its not a fake, just because mark is missing. When these marks are reused, only one getting cheated was guardein for his fee to controle.
Guardein set guardein mark to say that he set city mark. Same argument as obove.
You should see old silver in another context. They where honest.
I many cases - I have several exambles - maker was also guardein. That Means mr abc put one mark at silversmith abc. He then set a different guardein mark because now he bekame guardein mr. abc. And he added city mark and tax mark as Kings representative mr abc.
Same person but different roles.
I many Towns there where no guardein. What should a silver Smith do? He has some options. He could have 2 different marks. When he stroke the 2 different mark each 2 times the silver har the requered 4 marks.
Or - he could set one mark, or 2 times his mark, or 3 times his mark og 4 times his mark.
Or he could get a city mark and strike that one time and his makers mark 2 times.
All these variations excist.
I my Collection I have a huge variety of funny ways to set the lowfull 4 marks.
But I never question the lod of the silver. They where wery lawfull. They worked - their conditions made it impossible to fulfill the law. But that is not the same as they broke the law.
This is proberly very confusing.
----------------------------------------------------------
That was the direction of my[url]hypothesis[/url]! Buntzell was the name of this hypothesis with many questionmarks - though he was already dead. By the way this answer is wrong: [quote="Qrt.S"]His punch was JTB in script. See the ITP photo of the marks from PL!
I read a pretty banner lately:
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Goldstein
Re: ITB again
@Goldsteín
You never give up do you hiding behind opinions written by other persons. What is wrong with saying that Buntzell's mark is in script? Postnikova #1748 mark is copied from Bäcksbacka's book #408a p. 51 and it is in script font, so what's the problem?
You never give up do you hiding behind opinions written by other persons. What is wrong with saying that Buntzell's mark is in script? Postnikova #1748 mark is copied from Bäcksbacka's book #408a p. 51 and it is in script font, so what's the problem?
Re: ITB again
Goldstein
Regarding criminal minds, including silversmiths, it`s not the severity of the punishment, but its certainty.
Beyond the scope of the thread, just my attitude.
OK.Strictly defined ``Something that`s not authentic or genuine`` But it depends on the attitude and it`s arguable. As for me it`s silver made or altered the day before yesterday (not literally) to deceive potential buyers. On the other hand, I do not mind having duty dodgers and transposed marks tax due avoided 200 years ago. I thought there was a way to tell the difference because transposing marks from small pieces to e.g. much heavier teapots and sauce boats is not easy, having in mind the temperature needed to bring the whole piece close to red heat (750 Celsius) when hard solder flows like water. But having seen what`s done nowadays, anything's possible in well equipped workshops.Scary!In fact what`s a fake?
Regarding criminal minds, including silversmiths, it`s not the severity of the punishment, but its certainty.
Beyond the scope of the thread, just my attitude.
Re: ITB again
Hi -
I am not hiding behind opinions - I welcome every mosaic stone that brings me closer to answering my questions. AG2012 delivered one of this stones. One possible step to perhaps solve the riddle. dognose´s and Hose´s remarks/observations goes the same way like my assumptions. What is wrong with considering all aspects? Maybe they end nowhere - but you have to consider.
That the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet shows an I is in this contex completely superfluous ballast knowledge and leads nowhere.
Your remark that Buntzell´s mark is in script assumes that there was no other mark - the reason why I show photos of all known marks - not only #1748 in script but also #1749 in letters like the mark in discussion. It is a Russian object with marks used in Russia - who cares for Finnish marks used in Finnland? At best, for the sake of completeness.
That Postnikova copied the mark # 408a from Bäcksbacka is possible, I neither have a source for that nor is it object of this thread (see above) but the Russian version is missing in your ca. 70 years old book.
Postnikova used the marks she found in Russian archives (pure assumption but logic).
Over all this "you said, I said - nonsense" often the real issue of a contribution is forgotten - the result is zero - everybody is bored or annoyed.
The only aim of this forum is education, research and not to forget entertainment on a certain scientifically and socially level.
Goldstein
I am not hiding behind opinions - I welcome every mosaic stone that brings me closer to answering my questions. AG2012 delivered one of this stones. One possible step to perhaps solve the riddle. dognose´s and Hose´s remarks/observations goes the same way like my assumptions. What is wrong with considering all aspects? Maybe they end nowhere - but you have to consider.
That the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet shows an I is in this contex completely superfluous ballast knowledge and leads nowhere.
Your remark that Buntzell´s mark is in script assumes that there was no other mark - the reason why I show photos of all known marks - not only #1748 in script but also #1749 in letters like the mark in discussion. It is a Russian object with marks used in Russia - who cares for Finnish marks used in Finnland? At best, for the sake of completeness.
That Postnikova copied the mark # 408a from Bäcksbacka is possible, I neither have a source for that nor is it object of this thread (see above) but the Russian version is missing in your ca. 70 years old book.
Postnikova used the marks she found in Russian archives (pure assumption but logic).
Over all this "you said, I said - nonsense" often the real issue of a contribution is forgotten - the result is zero - everybody is bored or annoyed.
The only aim of this forum is education, research and not to forget entertainment on a certain scientifically and socially level.
Goldstein
Re: ITB again
#Goldstein
Yes education and presenting facts are the keywords. Therefore it is of utmost importance that the information presented here is not nonsense like oral stories heard here and there. What I state I can backup. You have been caught for providing misleading information. That is an unacceptable fact.
We were talking about a specific Buntzell's mark in script. Who is assuming again about other marks may I ask?
Oh yes, you are again disdaining facts and "assuming" like do continuously. The I in the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet shows that one cannot take for granted that an I in a mark automatically indicates the Latin alphabet.
Talking about facts. Hose and AG2012 presented good information about fakes. Nothing actually new but that is called cool facts. A fake is an (authentic) object later altered one way or the other and the result is in conflict with the law. As simple as that.
Yes Leonard Bäcksbacka published his book 1951. Actually he wrote another book "Narvas och Nyens guldsmeder" already in 1946. Both books are still today unbeaten by any other books, very difficult to find, expensive and desirable. Quite a lot of the information in Postnikova comes from the mentioned books. Of course there are marks missing from LB's book like it is missing in Postnikova too not to talk about all the mistakes she made...! Nobody is perfect you know.
This discussion ends here.
Yes education and presenting facts are the keywords. Therefore it is of utmost importance that the information presented here is not nonsense like oral stories heard here and there. What I state I can backup. You have been caught for providing misleading information. That is an unacceptable fact.
We were talking about a specific Buntzell's mark in script. Who is assuming again about other marks may I ask?
Oh yes, you are again disdaining facts and "assuming" like do continuously. The I in the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet shows that one cannot take for granted that an I in a mark automatically indicates the Latin alphabet.
Talking about facts. Hose and AG2012 presented good information about fakes. Nothing actually new but that is called cool facts. A fake is an (authentic) object later altered one way or the other and the result is in conflict with the law. As simple as that.
Yes Leonard Bäcksbacka published his book 1951. Actually he wrote another book "Narvas och Nyens guldsmeder" already in 1946. Both books are still today unbeaten by any other books, very difficult to find, expensive and desirable. Quite a lot of the information in Postnikova comes from the mentioned books. Of course there are marks missing from LB's book like it is missing in Postnikova too not to talk about all the mistakes she made...! Nobody is perfect you know.
This discussion ends here.
Re: ITB again
Hi AG2012
I am with you.
But as often remarked, there are many serious collectors of silver, who can touch, feal and see what happened 50, 100 or more years ago. They detect tax dodgers, users of obsolete punches from dead persons and other conspicuous anomalies only by observation, comparison, exchange of experiences and knowledge.
This is the point where research starts. Things you miss or do not understand if you only are strictly glued to the pure wording of laws, decrees and edicts.
If reliable results are finally available, it usually takes 10 years or longer to update the existing, aging literature with the newest researches.
Lately some member wrote something like: "...we all still were not born at that time - so we can not know what happened".
I am still looking for eyewitnesses who saw Khlebnikov in his workshop polishing silver - otherwise ...
Goldstein
I am with you.
But as often remarked, there are many serious collectors of silver, who can touch, feal and see what happened 50, 100 or more years ago. They detect tax dodgers, users of obsolete punches from dead persons and other conspicuous anomalies only by observation, comparison, exchange of experiences and knowledge.
This is the point where research starts. Things you miss or do not understand if you only are strictly glued to the pure wording of laws, decrees and edicts.
If reliable results are finally available, it usually takes 10 years or longer to update the existing, aging literature with the newest researches.
Lately some member wrote something like: "...we all still were not born at that time - so we can not know what happened".
I am still looking for eyewitnesses who saw Khlebnikov in his workshop polishing silver - otherwise ...
Goldstein
Re: ITB again
Hi Qrt.S -
maybe I miss something - but the only viable clue came from AG2012.
Without attacks, insinuations and accusations. simply a clear, concise information. The style I prefer!
Goldstein
maybe I miss something - but the only viable clue came from AG2012.
Without attacks, insinuations and accusations. simply a clear, concise information. The style I prefer!
Goldstein
Re: ITB again
Yes, Qrt.S, Ivanov also claims Cyrillic initials ИБ, ИТБ
I am far from being competent to comment Ivanov`s monumental book, but there are inconsistencies. Certainty about marks and ``mentioned`` (упоминается), meaning lack of reliable data.
There are 7 Berg silversmiths in Ivanov, 5 with Latin, 2 with Cyrillic alphabet.
No results when searching internet in Russian,either.
Skurlov looks very comprehensive,I could not even count silversmiths starting with B, and the only fitting initials.
It`s far from definitive conclusions but possibly a working hypothesis.
371. Берг Иоганн Томасович (р. в Финляндии) — владелец мастерской серебряных изделий, упоминается в 1895 и 1903 годах. С.-Петербург.
Инициалы на клейме: ИБ, ИТБ
I am far from being competent to comment Ivanov`s monumental book, but there are inconsistencies. Certainty about marks and ``mentioned`` (упоминается), meaning lack of reliable data.
There are 7 Berg silversmiths in Ivanov, 5 with Latin, 2 with Cyrillic alphabet.
No results when searching internet in Russian,either.
Skurlov looks very comprehensive,I could not even count silversmiths starting with B, and the only fitting initials.
It`s far from definitive conclusions but possibly a working hypothesis.
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