Who is ITB?

[Goldstein]

Hi all -
maybe someone can solve a riddle: who is ITB?


years ago I found this little salt spoon, St. Petersburg, maker ITB. I always thought that the funny form comes from an unprofessional repair. The maker ITB = Buntzell, Johann Theodor??????

What a surprise, when I found some years later an identic salt spoon, Riga, maker Jacobi, Friedrich W. So this form actual existed.


Thanks in advance
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Johann Theodor Buntzell was born in Reval, Estonia 15.3.1786. He became master around 1810 and died in Reval 5.8.1846. His punch was JTB in script. The hallmark (dvoinik) on the spoon was implemented in 1882! Now it is time for conclusions!

Friedrich Wilhelm Jacobi worked as apprentice/journeyman to 1804 in Riga. His date of birth and date of being master are not known but working 1804 indicates that he must have been born in late 18th century. Alderman in the guild 1813. At least then he was a master. He stopped working in 1831 (retired?). He marked F.I with no dot after I. The mark on the spoon is not clearly F.I . It could be seen as e.g. F.I., EL, F.L etc... In addition, the hallmark is the same dvoinik as in the first case, implemented 1882! Question: How old was Jacobi in 1882? Again time for conclusions!

[AG2012]

Ergonomic design! When using it the wrist remains in neutral (physiological) position. Very ingenious. I think the spoons are genuine; it makes no sense to fake an item with such an obvious flaw like very unusual form of the stem. The opinion is based on logic, I wonder whether this pattern has ever been recorded, not only Russian but elsewhere, too.

[Qrt.S]

No, no, the spoons are not fakes. That was not my point, which was: Who made them!

[AG2012]

Still, it`s extremely unusual pattern. Cannot see whether the proximal end of the stem is soldered to the bowl to this position, or twisted for 90 degrees. When we see something for the first time questions are asked. Understandable curiosity and options explored.

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 and Qrt.S -

thanks for your thoughts.
Our member hose wrote an interesting and convincing contribution about the different habits of silversmiths in that days (after the acquisition of a workshop, the old stamps were often used by the new smith, tax avoidance tricks, etc.). I assume that we do not know many relationships or assess completely wrong. Motto: What is not in the books - can not be. Why should one use known marks to cheat? In my opinion they often used what they have to save money. The customer was not interested or cared for the name marks of the silversmith - he just wanted to be sure that the legal silvercontent was officially confirmed /guaranteed. Although we see every day things, which make everything known look seemingly upside down - we never the less stick sometimes to much with the little we know. In this (and many other) case my books are worthless - even wellknown authors are groping in the dark. It is exasperating - someone has made these things - but no one knows him....

All the material I could find:



Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Your appendices tell exactly what I wrote earlier. I have the same books and more. None of us lived in 19th century making it almost impossible to any of us to know what exactly happened in those days. That means that all not written are assumptions only, could be or not. You still don't believe what I say. Do not make hasty conclusions based on unverified facts!

What in the earth are you taking about??? See the quote below!

Why should one use known marks to cheat?

Let me tell you only one example out of many, MANY!. Take the punch "ФАБЕРЖЕ". Do I have to say more? The world is full of misused silver punches. Take my word for it.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -
I am sure you know the difference between facts (no scope possible) and hypothesis (everything is possible). I have allowed myself to express some conjectures! (conjectures = guess, presumption, assumption, conjecture, supposition, suspicion). As far as you can only repeat what I already know, discussions like that end in stubborn repetitions of aquired knowledge.(....of course you have more books...)

What in the earth are you taking about??? See the quote below!

Goldstein wrote:
Why should one use known marks to cheat?

Translation: why should a silversmith use marks from another silversmith to cheat (give the impression that he is the silversmith whose mark he use). Got it?

Anyway, many thanks for your valuable insights!

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

No, I don't get it improve your language!

[Goldstein]

Hi -
another of this funny spoons, made by Silventoinen, Pekka J. He made many very nice objects in a fine quality.




Goldstein