Russian sterling silver flute

[Smokanabeach]

Hi everybody!

Back with another russian item I recently buy: 21.1 cm high and weight 156g.

I've got few questions about it:

- do you know something about the maker? I found it is Froiov (Fraiov) Fedor (2978 - Postnikova-Loseva).

- other question is about something i forgot: is that normal, that each part of the flute is not hallmarked as for french silvermark?

Thank you for your help?

Best Regards.

Don Smoka

[Qrt.S]

Not much is known about him, petty bourgeois, even his working period is a bit unclear "around" 1815-38. Anyway, his name is transliterated Fyodor Frolov (Fralov)

[Smokanabeach]

Thanks for your answer Qrt.S!!!

About the second point, are silversmith obliged to hallmark each part of a silver item?

[Qrt.S]

According to the Russian law every detachable part should (soldered, riveted, hinged etc...) carry a hallmark in the 19th century. In general that is the case but if you find an object incorrectly marked it might indicate it being a fake. I would avoid buying such an object. Later in the 20th century some objects made of several parts might carry only one hallmark (kokoshnik) in addition to the maker's mark. I would as well be rather careful with such objects because they could be faked.....or not! The law also stipulated where the marks should be punched on separate objects. One should know the places. If you are not absolutely sure of what you intend to buy, do not buy it! The markets are full of very well made Russian fakes, especially enameled objects.

[Smokanabeach]

Thanks again for all your knowledge Qrt.S!
I tried more and more to be attentiv to those different points but as you say, some fakes looks as real object! That's why their business are still 'prolific'! What is surprising to me is 'fakers' don't care about hallmarks... For whom (as me) who are not specialist in russian design, hallmarks is a good start to authentify an item...

Anyway , in our case: hallmarks at the top are ok, about the feet they also look OK (even if only the top is hallmarks)... But judging from your post I guess I made a mistake ...?

About 'each part should be punched': is that not a problem for silversmith, because hallmark an item everywhere could make poor its style, isn't?

[Dad]

Hi.

Show please these punches : "at the feet".

The item looks like original. But I didn't see rectangular leg of a glass earlier
Florov was the famous silversmith in Moscow. In 1822 because of the conflict with Frolov the assayer Karpinsky was dismissed from Moscow assay office.

[Smokanabeach]

Hello Dad and thank you for your informations about Frolov!

About hallmarks we can find on the feed, please see bellow:



Thanks for your help!

Don Smoka

[Smokanabeach]

One more thing about the hallmarks:there's also a spawn (french silvermark) beside the russian hallmarks, as the top of the flute.



Just to know, because we already know all this flute is sterling silver made...

Smoka

[dognose]

Hi Smoka,

Just curious, you refer to the flute being 'sterling'. Has that been confirmed? It is marked '84' (875/1000), although I appreciate that to be a minimum standard, I just wondered if in fact that you found it was 925/1000.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

@Dognose
If the fineness is "sterling" i.e 925/1000 the counter value in zolotniks would then have been 88,80. That is not a Russian fineness but 88,00 is, but more seldom used and when used only on more valuable objects (916,67/1000). Here it is 84.
Unfortunately the word "sterling" is often misunderstood and therefore also "misused" if I may say so.

[Smokanabeach]

"Unfortunately the word "sterling" is often misunderstood and therefore also "misused" if I may say so."
=> Qrt. S, you're definitely right! I used the word "sterling" as opposed to plated silver or silver hollow point filled with wax (Don't forget it is hard to me to speak english as I just practice this tong here...)

"but more seldom used and when used only on more valuable objects (916,67/1000)"
=> which objects are often fake! Could we say that most of fake are in 88 standard or that the same with 84?

Sorry for that misunderstanding!

Smoka

[Smokanabeach]

Just one more thing: in french; what we call "argent massif" is for all standard purity (800, 925, 950)... And a translation of "argent massif" in english is ... Sterling silver!

[Qrt.S]

Yes, the Americans often use the word "sterling" as a synonym to "silver" in general irrespective of the fineness. But Smoka is a silver object hollow or filled with wax etc. has nothing to do with the fineness.

No, we cannot make that statement that 88 is more used on fakes than 84, rather on the contrary.

@Smoka!!!!!
Just between you and me, my native tongue is not either English, so no problems encountered here :-)))))))))))))))))))

[Qrt.S]

Interesting translation of the word "sterling", why not "massive silver" or "just "silver" because silver is silver. The rest is something else like plate or plated etc...

...Just wondering???

[Smokanabeach]

Dear Qrt.S!

"But Smoka is a silver object hollow or filled with wax etc. has nothing to do with the fineness."
=> right, but " filles with wax..." was in comparaison to "sterling" or "solid" silver... Misunderstanding again?

"Just between you and me, my native tongue is not either English, so no problems encountered here :-)))))))))))))))))))"
=> agree again...may be you're just better than me... Or may be french is more fluent over the world than finnish and speaking english is not a priority... ;-))))

"why not "massive silver" or "just "silver""
=> what is interesting is when you translate "argent massif" in english the result is "solid silver"... And when you also translate " sterling silver" info french it gets " argent massif"... My opinion on that is french people often use "silver" for everything as silver plated, solid silver (;-)))) or silver filled with wax. That's why sterling silver was used by myself considering metal itself and not its purity... But interesting to consider this gap of langage...

[Qrt.S]

OK, so be it, no big deal but interesting...

[AG2012]

Is it `` swan`` import mark? Spawn is something else (fish spawn).Lapsus calami,I suppose. I think the ``swan`` was used since 1893, meaning the flute was imported decades after its supposed manufacture, possibly from the third country. Rosenberg claims the swan mark was used for silver imported ``aus Ländern ohne Handelsvertrag `` meaning ``imported from countries without trade treaty``, whatever it meant at the time.
As far as I can see the decoration on the rim matches the foot (made at the same time and by the same hand).
(We do understand each other, don’t we? Solid silver of a single alloy opposed to plated base metals).
Regards

[Smokanabeach]

Yes we do AG2012!

You're right I meaned Swan and not ''spawn''!

So considering your post can I conclude this flute looks authentical even if that is not the débats?

Regards.

[AG2012]

The stem is hollow and one of the sides looks detached, cannot see whether completely or not.Why do I find it important? Faked marks cannot be struck on intact hollow stem for obvious reason - the stem would be badly impressed and damaged.On the other hand, if one of stem plates is loosened with enough space to insert e.g. a steel plate, the mark can be easily struck. (Let`s have in mind original marks were struck before soldering).I do not see any signs of repair,but I am sure you can examine the flute and look for traces of repair.
There are pros and cons.
If the stem is intact I`d say the marks were struck at the time of the manufacture.On the other hand, the decoration (the leaves) and rectangular stem are a bit odd for Russian silver first half 19th century.
In a word, examine the stem.
Regards