Artel?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:08 pm

Hi all -
this object has some remarkable marks but an unknown maker AX from Moscow. The mark F/3 you only find on objects from the 15th Artel - also the marking modus is the same. The quality is typical for the 15th Artel.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Here an example from my collection to compare:

Image
Image

See the exact marking - exept the differen maker?
Is it a work of the 15th Artel but marked/sold by AX? Did the Artels sell to vendors?
I am a little confused - I never have seen objects made by Artels sold by others - but there is alway an exeption in Russia....

Source: PL p. 209, Private collection Zolotnik

Regards
Zolotnik

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 42919
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Artel?

Postby dognose » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:08 pm

Hi Zolotnik,

Just from practical point of view, such a mark must surely have been struck pre-assembly of the item, else the risk of shattering the glass would be very high.

In England it was common for silversmiths to hold the punches of other silversmiths. A London silversmith, for instance, if requiring certain items and knowing that a reputable Sheffield firm could produce them cheaper than they could, would order the items and supply a maker's mark punch, and the Sheffield firm would register the mark with the Sheffield Assay Office, make the items, get them assayed and hallmarked and then send them to the London firm ready to go on sale. As far as the retail customer was concerned, the work was that of the London firm.

Could it be that the 15th Artel were commissioned to make the item for AX?

Trev.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:59 pm

Hi Trev -
dognose wrote:Could it be that the 15th Artel were commissioned to make the item for AX?

That is the question. In all the years inspecting countless objects from the different Artels (authentic of course) I never have seen marks of other firms involved.
But there is always a first time....fits perfect for the 1000st contribution.

Regards
Zolotnik

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3793
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Artel?

Postby oel » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:07 pm

Hi Zolotnik,

The 15th Artel used a peculiar F/3 mark or secondary mark, why? Could it be a mark to indicate a certain department within the 15th Artel and if so could we expect to find other F/? marks. Have other Artels used those secondary marks?


Oel.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:55 pm

Hi oel -
oel wrote:The 15th Artel used a peculiar F/3 mark or secondary mark, why?

I do not know, the 15th Artel is the only Artel using this mark. The reason for this mark is completely unclear to me - since several years I try to interpret this mark. All my collector friends have also no answers.
Maybe Dad has an explanation?

Regards
Zolotnik

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Artel?

Postby AG2012 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:16 am

Image
Image
Image

The picture was upside down — it`s actually F/S.
It seems whenever there is F/S it`s crystal glass and silver made by 15th artel.
Possibly a retailer.But Ф.С. Осиповь is in Cyrillic.
Another possibility from a Russian forum;
Крайнее справа,это F/S обозначение 15 артели. Это иностранный поставщик 15 артели, обычная практика того времени.


(In short marked for export).
That`s what they think.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:30 am

Hi AG2012 -

that´s what I like on experts - they have answers! Many thanks for the valuable informations - and the correction. That makes sense - I only saw this F/S (!) on the combination silver/crystal glass, never on silver!

Regards
Zolotnik

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Artel?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:02 am

@Ag2012
I must be stupid but do you mean that F/S would be an abbreviation of the the English "Foreign Supplier"???? An abbreviation "F/S" being English on an imperial Russian object...? come on now!

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:22 pm

HI -
Крайнее справа,это F/S обозначение 15 артели. Это иностранный поставщик 15 артели, обычная практика того времени.



As written by AG2012 is this an information from a Russian forum, stating that it was common practice to mark exported objects of the 15th Artel (crystal / glass) with F/S. This would explain plausible the Latin letters on a Russian object. I believe that Russian collectors know much more than any member on this forum!
Was this mark punched in Russia or in some border town to Europe? Where was the main entrance door (town) for exports from Russia? Marked the 15th Artel this objects themselves? A lot of interesting unanswered questions for the collector....
The insinuation that F/S is an abreviation for "Foreign Suplier" is funny but neither proven nor mentioned by AG2012 - just your version to interprete it.
We all knew that the important firms like Klingert, Gratschew, Sazikov etc. exported their merchandise to Europe and the USA with great success. Do you know how this goods were marked? Have you ever seen original pieces delivered abroad? There were strict import rules in all this countries - the reason why Fabergé opened a branche in London - only reason to make export easier.
For me is this cognizance perfectly acceptable - until someone comes up with a better explanation.

Regards
Zolotnik

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 42919
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Artel?

Postby dognose » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:07 pm

Was this mark punched in Russia or in some border town to Europe?


How could it be struck on the border? The chances of breaking the glass would be very high. As I mentioned in my earlier post, these marks must have struck pre-assembly.

Trev.

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Artel?

Postby Qrt.S » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:15 pm

Not my version at all. The Russian text " иностранный поставщик " says it. I am still very doubtful about this F/S meaning...plausible but...?

And by the way, A kind of an "export mark" is the crossed kokoshink.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:55 pm

Hi Trev -
I understand your argument very good - but did we know something abot how this things get handeled? Who made the crystal? Russian firm? I have my doubts - never heared of Russian cristal manufactures of the better range. Porcellan yes - but cristal? Maybe the parts were delivered separately, silver from Russia, cristal from X and the final assembly was done somewhere else? For example the Karelian birch/cloisonné spoons. The wooden spoons were made by some peasant families, the enamel tubes in a certain factory and some other branch assembled them. Marking before assembling, otherwise the wood have cracked.
Just some thoughts....

Image
Image
Image

Regards
Zolotnik

dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 42919
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: Artel?

Postby dognose » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:30 pm


Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:00 pm

Hi Trev -
thank you for the tutoring session!

Regards
Zolotnik

Dad
contributor
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: Artel?

Postby Dad » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Hi.

Unfortunately, I don't know that there is F/S. ((
But by rules 1908 the maker mark has to be between mark of fineness and guarantee mark (kokoshnik). In this case.

Therefore, maker is AH

AG2012
contributor
Posts: 3950
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:47 am

Re: Artel?

Postby AG2012 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:39 am

The source mentioning crystal supplies by Maltzov Glassworks to Moscow 15th artel.
Мальцовъ. Мальцовский хрусталь

http://ruscrystal.ru/rus/article/&id=139

Основными исполнителями хрусталя под серебряные оправы (заказчиками были знаменитые ювелирные фирмы оссии : Болин, Фаберже, Хлебников, Грачевы, Лорие , 4,5,13,15 артели и т. д. ).


``The main customers who made silver mountings were famous Russian jewelers Bolin, Faberge, Khlebnikov, Grachev, Lorie, 4,5,13,15 artels etc.
F/S remains unclear; if strictly meant for export one cannot assume that so many silver mounted crystal objects by 15th artel were imported back to Russia and emerged in Russian market again with original boxes with Cyrillic lettering.
All said, F/S (which appears only with 15th artel and only on crystal mountings) may be a mark used exclusively for internal use.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Artel?

Postby Zolotnik » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:52 am

Hi AG2012 -
thanks again for your informations!

Regards
Zolotnik


Return to “Russian Silver”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests