Dimitry Alexandrov? Kokoshnik mark confusing

[klingert1974]

Hello again,
I was told these spoons are made by Dimitry Alexandrov between 1844-1886 but am having trouble finding that kokoshnik mark. There is one similar I saw on the normal kokoshnik marks online encyclopedia which says is an import mark but it's slightly different.
The second initial looks more like a H than an A but in the Russian silversmiths hallmarks book one example of Dmitry alexandrov's A is similar to an H which could be up top of the mark. I added 3 different pictures of different spoons hallmarks.
I know the case isn't original because was told that it may not be. But was assured the spoons were real. I spent a couple of hours looking up everything I could and am stuck as to who it really is sorry.




Thankyou if can help :)

[Qrt.S]

Dimitry Alekandrov's working period in Moscow was 1844-1886- In addition, his mark is ДА (Latin DA) . The kokoshnik hallmark tells us that the spoons are made 1908-1926 in the fineness of 875/1000 in Moscow by a maker that looks like like ЛН or possibly ПН (Latin LN or PN). Just forget Aleksandrov, nothing indicates him. Unfortunately the spoon maker is unknown to me. However, the next question is: Authentic or fake? Difficult to say because nowadays cloisonnee objects are very often fakes. As for now the chance is 50/50 needing a closer investigation.

[Qrt.S]

Forgot...
The kokshnik is an ordinary so called "shovel mark" used on small items like such spoons.

[Zolotnik]

Hi klingert -
to identify an object you start as follows: looking for the town mark (in your case the Greek letter "Delta" for Moscow). Looking for the assay mark (in your case Kokoschnik looking right for the years 1908-26, silver content 84 Zolotniki = 875/1000). Looking for the maker [ДН] in Moscow: Nikitin, D.P., a wellknown silversmith, working in enamel 1893-1917. Often the assay-and maker´s marks are a little deformed (they were put on before finishing the object, and the maker filed and polished the surface) - particularly so small and delicate things like small spoon stems. A knowing collector will resume now: 6 authentic enamel spoons, in used but nice state, silver gilded (875/1000) made in Moscow (most enamel was made in Moscow) between 1908 and 1917 by the well known maker and enamel of high quality producing Nikitin D. P.
To compare the/your quality I enclose photos of a cigarette case by Nikitin from my collecction:




Please note the unenameled spaces - characteristics of Nikitin´s work.

Congratulations to a nice find!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Nikitin!? This discussion has taken place before. There is quality in Nikitin's mark but not in the other. Compare the marks and decide for yourself. Pay attention to the shape of especially "Д" but not forgetting "H".

I would not bet on Nikitin!

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
collectors have a big advantage - they own the discussed material! Please consider (as clearly stated) that Nikitin worked from 1889 until 1917. You can assume that he used more than one punch over the years. Over and about that his style is typical (collectors speak of "fingerprints"- consistent in quality and enamel colours. Photos are always more meaningful than wild, personal guesses! Show some facts (photos) and I am with you!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Take a look at the marks and compare them once again. Of course punches were worn out, broken and renewed. BUT! Why would A master suddenly changes his sophisticated and stylish punch to a lousy and sloppy made "disaster" like the punch to the right is? Wouldn't Nikitin like to keep his reputation on its already high level standard instead of jeopardize it with crappy punches?

By the way, being a collector does not automatically mean the same as being an expert or having some advantages that a ordinary human does not have. Some times on the contrary...and that has been experienced, just believe me! When a so called "collector" states something it is not necessarily the absolute truth. There might be other opinions. Therefore please don't hide behind "collector = expert"!

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
you are the only expert (see below) on this forum:

However, the next question is: Authentic or fake? Difficult to say because nowadays cloisonneé objects are very often fakes. As for now the chance is 50/50 needing a closer investigation.

%0% fake? Bravo! What a luck to have you among us. It is always funny to read your convoluted platitudes that you use to escape a clear statement or profound experience.


I will again leave the forum for a while, because this ego-discussions are boring and contraproductive!

Regards
Zolotnik

[klingert1974]

Thankyou very much for the fast replies/information.

I wish I had joined this forum when I first started collecting. Would have made life a whole lot easier :)

The item description when I bought these said they had authenticated the marks from the Geoffrey Watts Russian Silversmiths Hallmarks book and I just believed them because had dealt with them before. I had the same book myself but was too stupid to check myself. Another valuable lesson learnt...check, double check and triple check no matter what.

Thanks again, much appreciated from South Australia :)