Know someone the maker?

[huszas76]

Hello all!

There is some pictures about this enamel item made in Moscow!
Unfortunately the lock is missing, and I didn't find the maker. Anybody know him?


Thank you all the helps!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmm..., it could be Gustav Klingert in Moscow but I have some minor doubts...Anyway, it is a cigarette case made between 1882-1898. Could you give its measures? Thank you in advance.

[huszas76]

Hello Qrt.S!
Thank you for your quick answer! This item is not mine, but I will measure as soon as possible.
If i right remember it was around 12x7x3 cm.

[huszas76]

Hello Qrt.S!
I have the measures!
96mm X 57mm X 22mm.
Best regards!
Krisztián

[huszas76]

Dear Qrt.S!
You mentioned, that you have some minor doubts.
You mean, that unsure that the maker is Klingert, or you have doubts about the genuine of the item?
BEst regards, and thanks in advance!
Krisztián

[Dad]

Hi, huszas76

Qrt.S is right.
It can be Klingert's factory, quite possibly.))

[Qrt.S]

The measures are very close to the old Russian "standards" for cigarette cases. My minor doubts relate to the fact that GK alias Gustav Klingert is very of often a target for fakes. In addition the lock knob is missing. It could have told us something more.

[Qrt.S]

Forgot to mention that the assayer A..? C is most likely Aleksandr Vladislavovitch Skovronsky in Moscow 1894-1908 and again in 1916.

[huszas76]

Qrt.S and Dad!
Thank you very much for your precious helps!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
usually I do not participate in fake discussions anymore - it is useless to try to persuate someone to learn the essentials about Russian silver first - or read several pages of the forum - before buying some ugly fakes.
The shown cigarette case is a fake, the by Dad shown salt throne (photo taken from a running online auction (!!) - very delicate - is a fake too. Assay master mostly AC!
Gustav Klingert was one of the best enamel artists in Russia and earned many prices national and abroad (Chicago, Paris, etc.). He was famous because his technique and quality was outstanding - not because his patterns were simple and unprofessional! Authentic objects are very seldom seen on the market since many years - if that happens they archieve the highest prices. You do not find them in online auctions etc. and they look complete different.
Here some examples from my collection - maybe you can see the difference......









Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, Zolotnik.

For some reason I am not surprised. ))
I believe, you consider also as a fake and this saltcellar:

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -
now the sensless discussion starts....

Klingert never used white dots as border or filled large areas with turquois enamel - this was more the style of Saltykov. In my opinion a fake. By the way I can not remember having seen salt thrones by him - neither in the wild, museums or literature.



Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

just for the interested: hinges on salt thrones always look like that, so please compare:









We all know what we should look for: quality, style, details (idiosyncrasies of the artist) and the marks - if you have no clue, you accept everything.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Well, now I must say that I'm surprised. The salt throne showed by Dad 2.53 pm is not a piece of such high quality that would be expected made by Klingert. In this case I share Zolotnik's opinion, it is a dubious object. In addition, the maker's mark GK on it looks a bit odd.......sorry Dad, but....

[Dad]

Klingert never used white dots as border or filled large areas with turquois enamel - this was more the style of Saltykov. In my opinion a fake.

There is the whole series of products of Klingert's factory (blue hoarfrost) :





To Admin: Sorry for double. I ask to remove the previous message.

[Dad]

Well, now I must say that I'm surprised. The salt throne showed by Dad 2.53 pm is not a piece of such high quality that would be expected made by Klingert. In this case I share Zolotnik's opinion, it is a dubious object. In addition, the maker's mark GK on it looks a bit odd.......sorry Dad, but....

It's your right, Qrt.S. ))

I wanted to show that a form of saltcellars the identical.

[Qrt.S]

#Dad,
Please compare the GK mark on the salt throne you showed with the GK on the cigarette case in your last message and as well the quality.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -
why discussing about fakes or not fakes? Some collect fakes - some collect authentic objects. Some know - some not.
You are right as always...

Regards
Zolotnik